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Thread: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    My bullets are better than yours.


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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    I think most players who will fly the Hurricane IIC and IID will use these aircraft primarily in a ground attack role.... or perhaps as a bomber destroyer.

    The IIC will be able to carry the bomb load of either two 250 lb or two 500 lb bombs.

    Those who want to use the Hurri II in air to air combat vs fighter opposition will probably pick the IIA or IIB... these are faster, lighter, and turn and climb better.

    The IIA is, as I mentioned, the lightest and fastest, with a top speed of just over 340 mph at around 22,000 ft... a much better performance than the Hurri I Rotol version. It will be a dangerous opponent for the 109E's during the first six months of 1941. The 109F-2 did not arrive in the desert till late August 1941, and the 109F-4 early version rated at 1.30 ata did not arrive till November of 1941. The 109F-4 was not rated to allow 1.42 ata till February of 1942. (this will be our Bf-109F-4-Late or Trop-Late) In effect, the Germans would only have the advantage of the F-4-Trop-Late in the Desert for approx. 1 month before the Spit V's arrive in April.

    The Hurricane IIB with the extra four .303's and the additional drag of these four outboard guns which protruded from the wing edge, had a top speed of approx. 330 mph at around 20,000 ft... still better than the Hurri I.

    The IIA's performance at sea level at +12 boost was slower than a Hurri I, the Hurri IIB at +16 boost was roughly comparable to the Hurri I at sea level.

    All the performance figures for the Hurri II's above are without the Vokes air filter.

    The RAF did not do a lot of testing of the Hurri II's with the Vokes filter, but they did extensively test the Spit V's with this filter. (also the Royal Australian Air Force tested the effects) Both the Hurri and the Spit used an identical filter arrangement... the only difference was the outside sheet metal moulding... which was very similar in shape. According to both the RAF and RAAF tests, the difference in speeds with and without the filter was not as great as imagined.... certainly nowhere near the huge drop seen in the secondary source based non-official chart posted by Karaya. I suspect this chart and the extrapolated speed for the Hurri IIC Tropical model shown on it are seriously in error.... certainly what this chart shows for other model versions does not agree with the original source documents I have seen. (as I posted previously) So the chart is not reliable in my opinion.

    There were two effects from the use of dust filters on all sides:

    1) When the engine intake airflow was required to be drawn through the filter, there was a reduction in the maximum boost pressure which could be generated due to the additional restriction caused by the filter. For aircraft like the Spitfire or Hurricane with the Vokes filter, or the Beaufighter, Gladiator, Blenheim, etc. this reduction was in effect at all times.... the filter could not be bypassed after the aircraft had taken off. For the German/Italian Macchi and Bf-109 types, the filter could be bypassed after takeoff, allowing full boost pressure again. The same applies to the American types.

    2) The second effect was the increased drag generated by an externally mounted filter... this was in effect at all times, both for the British types with their permanent filters, and also for the German/Italian types. These filters 'dirtied' the aircraft profile and increased turbulence. The American aircraft had the best solution and were not subject to this effect as their filters were internally built into the aircraft systems from the factory... not added later... so there was no increase in drag whether or not the filter was being used.

    We are planning on including a dust effect on aircraft engines on the Desert map... so any aircraft not using a dust filter during takeoff or at very low altitudes will start to incur damage to the engine. Players who have switchable filter systems will need to make sure to switch to filtered intake air during takeoff or they will run the risk of damage. And they will need to switch back to unfiltered after takeoff to get full performance.

    ----

    On a different subject.... I have discovered the Hispano Cannon ammunition currently being used by the Beaufighter is inaccurate... the Armour Piercing ammunition currently being used is actually a more effective later war type. The AP ammunition available in 1940-41 was less effective. In addition, the AP ammo was in short supply in 1940-41, and the RAF used a 'Ball' type ammo more often as a substitute. The high explosive/HE ammo currently used is accurate. This change will be added in the next BLITZ patch. Overall this will mean a reduction in AP effectiveness for the Beaufighter in 1940-41 and Hurri IIC in 1941 if these aircraft use appropriate percent amounts of AP in their ammo belts. Other types of Hispano ammo will also be introduced in 1941-42, including HE-I/High Explosive - Incendiary, SAP-I/Semi Armour Piercing - Incendiary, etc.
    Last edited by RAF74_Buzzsaw; Nov-01-2019 at 20:25.

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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Quote Originally Posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw View Post
    I think most players who will fly the Hurricane IIC and IID will use these aircraft primarily in a ground attack role.... or perhaps as a bomber destroyer.
    For sure.... most.... but....

    Not the few



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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Seriously though...

    I am loving this...

    been away for a while.. but coming back slowly

    So watch your sicks.

    (cos im in charge of the inflight prawn cocktails)


    and the lettuce is off....



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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    What is the definition of "ball" type ammunition again Buzz?

    Those SAP-Is will be pretty good hitters when they come out.
    Now the toss up will be between the Hurri IIB and the spit IIB/C......decisions decisions!

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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Quote Originally Posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw View Post
    Other types of Hispano ammo will also be introduced in 1941-42, including HE-I/High Explosive
    Appreciate all the info!
    Hope that with the introduction of this type of ammunition, the current german FF/M HE-I in the game will actually work by then? (errornously non explosive)?


    EDIT: To be honest, it's got about 2 grams of PETN, not alot, for comparison, see this video:



    The G.50 HEIT got about 0.8 grams PETN if I'm not wrong.

    Albeit the above, I consider both the G.50s 0.50 cal HEIT and the 20mm HE-I FF/M non explosive in the game as it is right now, as it is penetrating through the planes and does not destruct on impact or shortly after duo to the impact detonator of the HE rounds.
    Last edited by Tibsun; Nov-02-2019 at 14:24.

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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Lovely to see the Hurri with Vokes filter over the desert map. And those cannons... Yummy! - Keep up the good work guys!

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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_TCP View Post
    What is the definition of "ball" type ammunition again Buzz?

    Those SAP-Is will be pretty good hitters when they come out.
    Now the toss up will be between the Hurri IIB and the spit IIB/C......decisions decisions!
    Basically the difference between AP ammo and 'Ball' is the quality of the steel used.

    AP uses specially hardened steel, Ball is just normal steel. Normal steel will shatter much more easily on impact and therefore will not penetrate as well. All HE ammo types use normal mild steel as their composition as it is much easier to machine or cast to allow the space needed for the HE filler. The German 'Minen' shells had extremely thin walls... this allowed a lot more HE filler to be loaded, (19 grams) but also meant, (along with the lower weight due to less steel being used) they didn't penetrate as well.

    Some speciality AP ammunition used solid Tungsten cores... German or British ammunition for tank killing aircraft... but these were not normal loads for air to air combat... they were expensive to manufacture and unnecessary vs the aluminum frames of aircraft.

    The Hispano SAP-I round was a standard HE shell with the fuse removed and a hardened steel nose cap fitted in place... it had a filler of 12 grams of Dewilde style incendiary. Basically it was a huge 20mm size Dewilde round. The amount of incendiary in the round was much more than seen in comparable German Incendiary rounds. (typically 3-4 grams) The SAP-I also had a better aerodynamic profile than an HE round as it had a pointed nose. All HE shells, (as seen above in the images I posted) have flat nose caps... the top section of the round is the fuse... a flat nose fuse is more likely to be triggered on impact than a pointed nose fuse as the contact area is larger. However, the flat nose does incur an aerodynamic penalty and velocity does decay faster. The game models bullet round aerodynamics, each round fired has continuous calculations done by the game out to its effective range. The Game also models all the various types of high explosive and incendiary compositions... with their differences. So for example the German rounds are loaded with PETN, the British with Amatol... PETN was slightly more powerful.

    The Hispano HE-I round used the earlier standard HE round casing but instead of having only Amatol as the high explosive filler, it had a combination of Amatol and Dewilde style incendiary. This was found to be more effective. The filler was 10.5 grams for the older HE, and 11.33 grams for the HE-I. The casing was functionally identical to the HE version from the outside, but had different colour markings painted on it to differentiate.

    The various Hispano 20mm shells can be seen in this 1944 Handbook for ground crew and Infantry. It doesn't include the performance data for the rounds: (also includes Oerlikon 20mm types)

    https://www.bulletpicker.com/pdf/26%...Ammunition.pdf

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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Note: Above comments re. 'Ball' are in reference to 20mm and larger shells.

    Smaller rifle caliber 'Ball' rounds use a lead core with a steel or copper jacket... US .50 cal 'Ball' and Italian/Soviet/Japanese 12.7mm also. Some of the Italian 12.7mm rounds were cast/machined steel with HE in the cavity, but these were not very effective due to the very small amount of HE which could be used as filler.

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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    I forget way more than I remember here.

    but it is fascinating none the less.

    love it !



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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Thanks for your latest bit of info Buzz.

    I often wondered why the ammo would have a flat nose; it seems counterintuitive.
    Now I know.

    Thanks for taking the time to pass on your knowledge and expertise about, ammo, planes, all of it. I've certainly learned a lot.....

    Now if only I could remember 1/4 of it! (Just saw your bit Seas... Just so much to absorb)

    Last edited by farley; Nov-03-2019 at 21:42.
    "If you want to fly, give up everything that weighs you down"......

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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Of course, all this info is unimportant when considering the main factor... avoid allowing your opponent to even get a shot at you.

    Cause if he has a good shot, it really isn't going to matter much what type of ammo he is firing.

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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Quote Originally Posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw View Post
    Of course, all this info is unimportant when considering the main factor... avoid allowing your opponent to even get a shot at you.

    Cause if he has a good shot, it really isn't going to matter much what type of ammo he is firing.
    Yep, it is more important to the not-so-good shot who relies more on the occasional lucky strike
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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Quote Originally Posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw View Post
    The Hispano SAP-I round was a standard HE shell with the fuse removed and a hardened steel nose cap fitted in place... it had a filler of 12 grams of Dewilde style incendiary. Basically it was a huge 20mm size Dewilde round. The amount of incendiary in the round was much more than seen in comparable German Incendiary rounds. (typically 3-4 grams)
    The "Brandgranatpatrone" (I) used by the MG FF/M and MG 151/20 actually had an incendiary filler of around 7 grams. The "Brandsprenggranatpatrone" (HEI) had about 4 grams of filler, 2.3 grams of Nitropenta (explosive) and 2.1 grams of Elektronthermit (incendiary). The latter also burns underwater. The "Panzerbrandgranatpatrone (Phosphor)" (API Phosphorous) had a 3.6 grams core of Phosphorous as well as a 8.6 grams incendiary capsule of undisclosed composition.

    This page right here provides access to the 1942 version of the Luftwaffe's onboard weapons instruction manual. I know it's old news to you Buzzsaw but it might be interesting to others:

    http://michaelhiske.de/Wehrmacht/Luf...4000/INDEX.HTM

    And then there's the ammunition instruction manual of the Luftwaffe:

    http://michaelhiske.de/Wehrmacht/Luf...ion/Deckbl.htm
    Last edited by JG4_Karaya; Nov-04-2019 at 10:12.

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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Thanks for that info Buzz, never heard of that kind of ammunition being refered to as ball. Maybe because I haven't studied aviation related weaponry very much
    Great information on the explosive types

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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Quote Originally Posted by JG4_Karaya View Post
    The "Brandgranatpatrone" (I) used by the MG FF/M and MG 151/20 actually had an incendiary filler of around 7 grams. The "Brandsprenggranatpatrone" (HEI) had about 4 grams of filler, 2.3 grams of Nitropenta (explosive) and 2.1 grams of Elektronthermit (incendiary). The latter also burns underwater. The "Panzerbrandgranatpatrone (Phosphor)" (API Phosphorous) had a 3.6 grams core of Phosphorous as well as a 8.6 grams incendiary capsule of undisclosed composition.

    This page right here provides access to the 1942 version of the Luftwaffe's onboard weapons instruction manual. I know it's old news to you Buzzsaw but it might be interesting to others:

    http://michaelhiske.de/Wehrmacht/Luf...4000/INDEX.HTM

    And then there's the ammunition instruction manual of the Luftwaffe:

    http://michaelhiske.de/Wehrmacht/Luf...ion/Deckbl.htm
    Thanks for that Karaya... yes, I realize later versions had more incendiary content.... I was thinking more of the early versions.

    Will be including all the relevant types.... although not the training types as they make a mess of the game because they cannot be properly modeled.

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