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Thread: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

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    Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop



    The aircraft's nose is lengthened by 3 inches to allow the two speed supercharged Merlin XX. But that was counterbalanced by addition of weight in the tail to keep the CoG correct.

    There is more weight with the four Hispanos instead of the eight .303's, as well as the heavier ammo.

    And there is more drag on the airframe with the protruding guns.

    So this means the aircraft turns worse... but not worse than a 109.

    Overall, the Hurricane II's at +12 boost had slightly worse low altitude performance when compared to a +12 boost Hurri I.... but quite a bit better high alt performance.

    The best performing Hurri II was the IIA, with the same gunset as the Hurri I... it was not much heavier. It is arguably a better aircraft than the standard 109E's at high altitude.

    Later models got quite a bit heavier, with the IID being the heaviest with the huge 40mm AT cannon.

    1942 versions were upped to an allowable +16 boost, which helped low alt performance.

    Tropical versions had less power due to the permanent airflow restriction of the Vokes air filter... the filter could not be moved out of place with a lever or switch to allow free airflow like the German/Italian/American aircraft. The Vokes fairing also added quite a bit of drag which slowed the aircraft.

    The four Hispanos do the expected amount of damage... so similar to a Beaufighter, except the Beaufighter is not so sensitive to convergence because its weapons are in the nose instead of the wing.

    But a Hurricane IIC which has a free run at a bomber will do some nasty damage.

    Revised damage modelling still underway, bombers will be tougher in TF 5.0 than 4.5.

    All elements WIP.

    Cheers,

    Pattle
    Last edited by ♣_Spiritus_♣; Oct-26-2019 at 19:43.

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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Pattle View Post
    T
    1942 versions were upped to an allowable +16 boost, which helped low alt performance.
    A curiosity, instrument panel will be updated to reflect this change?

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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Quote Originally Posted by 1lokos View Post
    A curiosity, instrument panel will be updated to reflect this change?
    Yes.... not implemented in this version as the cockpit instruments as well as the new throttle/bomb release and other elements are in progress.

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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Looks awesome. I don't want to get n front of that thing

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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Pattle View Post
    So this means the aircraft turns worse... but not worse than a 109.
    So G50s stand a chance after all
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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Nice video Pattle, ths for posting

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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    So G50s stand a chance after all
    ........not if we get behind you, Noofy! As Vampire says: 'They don't like it up 'em!'

    And that goes for G50's, too! Ha ha! Salute!

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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Marlow View Post
    ........not if we get behind you, Noofy! As Vampire says: 'They don't like it up 'em!'

    And that goes for G50's, too! Ha ha! Salute!
    Exactly. IF...
    How can you get behind us when we are all around you?
    Last edited by ATAG_Noofy; Oct-27-2019 at 06:59.
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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    For some insane reason I forgot to comment!

    Absolutely smashing video Pattle!!
    So brilliant to get some close up footage of the IIC, especially the trop!
    Love the detail on the cannons, extremely well done!
    Fantastic to see the classic pointy nose in the air

    By the way...is it just my eyes, or are those some cool new 3D shell casing animations?

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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Yes I'm curious how much of a performance difference the 2 versions Volks and non Volks will have. Awesome Video Pattle and damn nice marksmanship! Thanks for Sharing TFS!
    Cheers
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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    Exactly. IF...
    How can you get behind us when we are all around you?
    ... I support Noofy's enthusiasm and his optimism, ... so dare to express a wish: to be able to fly in the future with the "mythical" Savoia Marchetti 79 !!!

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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Great showcase video there Pat. I must say your video production skills are getting very good.
    Thank u for taking the time to put stuff like this together.
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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Thanks Torian.

    Shout out to Sensei Yo and Mystic Puma for giving me a number of great constructive tips the past 4-5 months.

    I'm sure they see their tips in the videos

    Pattle

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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Ribbs View Post
    Yes I'm curious how much of a performance difference the 2 versions Volks and non Volks will have. Awesome Video Pattle and damn nice marksmanship! Thanks for Sharing TFS!
    There is a difference... you'll have to wait and see.

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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Seeing those four Hispanos in action, I noticed how remarkable stable the Hurricane stayed. Being used to 109s with their two cannons, there is a lot of instability and shaking.

    Is this difference resulting from work-in-progress or was the Hurricane that stable?

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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Quote Originally Posted by DUI View Post
    Seeing those four Hispanos in action, I noticed how remarkable stable the Hurricane stayed. Being used to 109s with their two cannons, there is a lot of instability and shaking.

    Is this difference resulting from work-in-progress or was the Hurricane that stable?
    Mine has a very stable pilot.


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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Beautiful plane... my favorite by far! such damage much awesome wow cannon
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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Not aure DUI, but if it is as it should be, this could be dependant on the timing on the cannons.
    For example, the 109 cannons do seem to fire one by one (or are untimed).
    If on the IIC the cannons are either timed, or even to a degree untimed, the effect of two cannons (one on either wing) firing at the same time would effectively reduce that torque from firing. Rather that the port cannon firing itself and pushing that wing back before the other fires.

    That is from a physics point of view, but I am sure the team has a better explaination

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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Quote Originally Posted by DUI View Post
    Seeing those four Hispanos in action, I noticed how remarkable stable the Hurricane stayed. Being used to 109s with their two cannons, there is a lot of instability and shaking.

    Is this difference resulting from work-in-progress or was the Hurricane that stable?
    Not aure DUI, but if it is as it should be, this could be dependant on the timing on the cannons.
    For example, the 109 cannons do seem to fire one by one (or are untimed).
    If on the IIC the cannons are either timed, or even to a degree untimed, the effect of two cannons (one on either wing) firing at the same time would effectively reduce that torque from firing. Rather that the port cannon firing itself and pushing that wing back before the other fires.
    Might have something to do with the weapon itself.

    The Hispano Mk II as fitted to the Hurricane IIc fired a 130 gram projectile, had a Muzzle Velocity of 840 or 880 m/sec (depending on length of barrel) and a 600 to 850 rounds per minute rate of fire.

    The MGFF Cannon on the other hand fired a 134 gram projectile, with a Muzzle Velocity of 585, 600 or 700 m/sec and a 520 to 540 rounds per minute rate of fire.

    The MGFF was a slower firing weapon this may account for the difference when firing in comparison to the Hispano.

    My thoughts.

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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Hello Vampire

    Sorry have to correct you. Hurricane IIC had Hispano Mk I... later models of the Hurricane had Hispano Mk II.

    The Hispano Armour Piercing round was 168 grams with a muzzle velocity of 840 m/s. The HE round was 130 grams total, with an HE payload of 10.5 grams and with a muzzle velocity of 880 m/s.

    CORRECTION: The earlier British AP round had a weight of 140 grams and a muzzle velocity of 811 m/s... one above is later version.

    The MG/FFM Minen round had a weight of 92 grams with a payload of 19.0 grams and a muzzle velocity of 695 m/s. The Minen is a better comparison with the British rounds as it was more often used.

    The MG151/20 Minen round had a muzzle velocity of 790 m/s with the weight of the round and payload the same. The MG151/20 had a longer barrel which increased muzzle velocity. Cartridge was almost the same as MG/FFM, just slightly bigger.

    Note: These weights are for the propelled round, not complete cartridge.

    ----

    The Germans had a philosophy of doing damage with HE effects, this was effective as long as the round exploded within the fuselage or wing... this would then blow the aluminum skin off. If deflected or for other reasons exploded outside, it was less effective.

    The British wanted to make sure they penetrated, so the rounds were heavier but with less payload... they did their damage more with kinetic force... they could smash through the internal structures more easily. The Hispano AP round also had better aerodynamic characteristics than the HE rounds for either side... these had flat noses... not as good as the tapered nose on the AP round. It sustained velocity better... so better effects at longer range... less speed bleed over distance.

    ----

    Some pictures of HE cartridges.... the MG/FFM fired the 20X80 cartridge, the MG151/20mm fired the 20X82 cartridge, the Hispano fired the 20X110 cartridge.




    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Vampire View Post
    Might have something to do with the weapon itself.

    The Hispano Mk II as fitted to the Hurricane IIc fired a 130 gram projectile, had a Muzzle Velocity of 840 or 880 m/sec (depending on length of barrel) and a 600 to 850 rounds per minute rate of fire.

    The MGFF Cannon on the other hand fired a 134 gram projectile, with a Muzzle Velocity of 585, 600 or 700 m/sec and a 520 to 540 rounds per minute rate of fire.

    The MGFF was a slower firing weapon this may account for the difference when firing in comparison to the Hispano.

    My thoughts.

    07
    Last edited by RAF74_Buzzsaw; Oct-31-2019 at 03:55.

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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Thanks for those posts Buzzsaw/Vamps! Love those details on the ballistics

    I do like the British philosophy to be honest, more punch power rather than extra power. Also means you make sure that you hit what you aim at and not other things (if there was a situation where that would be useful)

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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Quote Originally Posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw View Post
    Hello Vampire

    Sorry have to correct you......
    No problems Buzzsaw always happy to defer to those with the greater knowledge.

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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Ribbs View Post
    Yes I'm curious how much of a performance difference the 2 versions Volks and non Volks will have. Awesome Video Pattle and damn nice marksmanship! Thanks for Sharing TFS!
    Here's a nice chart that summarizes Hurricane Mk.II performances of various armament marks, different boosts (+12lbs, +16lbs) and trop & non-trop. The 4 lines from the left are relevant, not sure what the one on the far right is but it's definitely no Hurricane. Possibly projected performance of the Spitfire Mk.III prototype using the same Merlin XX engine.

    Hurricane-II_12lbs-740.jpg

    Even in its cleanest configuration (IIa) and using +16lbs boost the Hurricane barely reaches 291mph (~470kmh) at SL. Means that it will be outrun by the Emil and even more so by the Friedrich. Topspeed at the engine's rated altitude of 17,500 ft (5250m) is 342mph (~550kmh) but again only in the cleanest configuration (IIa). The cannon armed IIc is a good 15 mph (25 kmh) slower at all alts. If we count in the sand filter as well those figures are cut down by another 25 mph (40 kmh).
    Last edited by Karaya; Oct-31-2019 at 11:26.

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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Dont worry about being so much slower fellas... No need to get right up behind your targets, those hispanos are far reaching

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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Behind?

    I've ways tried from the front whole doing my very own one man Haka

    Am I doing this wrong?

    Edit.

    And no Marlow... it is NOT gurning.

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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Quote Originally Posted by JG4_Karaya View Post
    Here's a nice chart that summarizes Hurricane Mk.II performances of various armament marks, different boosts (+12lbs, +16lbs) and trop & non-trop. The 4 lines from the left are relevant, not sure what the one on the far right is but it's definitely no Hurricane. Possibly projected performance of the Spitfire Mk.III prototype using the same Merlin XX engine.

    Hurricane-II_12lbs-740.jpg

    Even in its cleanest configuration (IIa) and using +16lbs boost the Hurricane barely reaches 291mph (~470kmh) at SL. Means that it will be outrun by the Emil and even more so by the Friedrich. Topspeed at the engine's rated altitude of 17,500 ft (5250m) is 342mph (~550kmh) but again only in the cleanest configuration (IIa). The cannon armed IIc is a good 15 mph (25 kmh) slower at all alts. If we count in the sand filter as well those figures are cut down by another 25 mph (40 kmh).
    Please note... the figures shown in the drawing Karaya has shown are from a secondary source, not original documents... additionally some of the results are extrapolated.

    I will be using original source documents in preference to these.

    That being said, it is undoubtedly the case the Hurricane II's were negatively affected by the addition of the extra weapons and the Vokes filter.

    Below is an original source document showing the performance of a Hurricane IIC without Tropical filter. You can see the original source document results do not agree with the results for a IIC at +12 boost in the diagram Karaya posted.



    But clearly, a Hurricane II is not on the same level of performance as a 109F.... especially the 109F-4 late version running 1.42 ata. That aircraft by most standards was clearly the best available in the desert during the time period TF 5.0 will simulate. That is why the Tomahawk Mk II and Kittyhawk Mk IA were designated as the air superiority fighters... although even then, these aircraft were completely outclassed at higher altitudes by the late F-4.... although they were more than capable of matching the F-4 at low altitudes.

    The reasons why the RAF didn't deploy Spitfires to the desert sooner are of course subject to justifiable criticism. (politics, incompetent leadership on the part of Air Vice Marshal Sholto Douglas and Trafford Leigh-Mallory after they ousted Dowding and Park, etc.) Even a few Spit I/II's in 1941, of which there were many available as surplus, would have altered the dynamics of the Fighter vs Fighter matchups in the desert. As it was, the Spit V's did not arrive till early April of 1942 in time for the Gazala Battles. (which will be included in TF 5.0)
    Last edited by RAF74_Buzzsaw; Oct-31-2019 at 15:28.

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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Quote Originally Posted by Biggs View Post
    Dont worry about being so much slower fellas... No need to get right up behind your targets, those hispanos are far reaching

    So you're saying theres a chance....
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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Quote Originally Posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw View Post
    Please note... the figures shown in the drawing Karaya has shown are from a secondary source, not original documents... additionally some of the results are extrapolated.
    Interesting that the two graphs differ in a few areas, topspeeds at altitude are about the same although the rated altitudes differ (~5200m vs ~6000m), sea level speeds are different however. I think the graph I posted helps provide an indication of what kind of performance hit can be expected from the different armaments and the tropical equipment however.

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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Quote Originally Posted by JG4_Karaya View Post
    Interesting that the two graphs differ in a few areas, topspeeds at altitude are about the same although the rated altitudes differ (~5200m vs ~6000m), sea level speeds are different however. I think the graph I posted helps provide an indication of what kind of performance hit can be expected from the different armaments and the tropical equipment however.
    As I said, secondary sources are not considered ahead of primary sources for performance data.

    I rate sources in terms of importance as follows:

    1) Original source data from the aircraft's manufacturer or Air Force.

    2) Original source data from Allied nation's using the aircraft on a sale/lease basis.

    3) Original source data from Enemy nations using captured aircraft.

    4) Secondary source data.

    5) Unofficial Pilot anecdotes.

    Any contradictions are resolved in favour of the higher rated source.

    The community should understand as well, that in many cases, different results were obtained from different tests. In some cases, test bureaus used the same aircraft for separate tests... these tests could occur over a lengthy period of time and the performance of the test aircraft naturally would deteriorate as its flying hours increased. In these cases, I put a higher importance on the tests done with a fresh aircraft.
    Last edited by RAF74_Buzzsaw; Oct-31-2019 at 15:53.

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    Re: Team Fusion Simulations 5.0 Hawker Hurricane IIc/Trop

    Everytime I see someone post anything on ballistics or flight data.. I cringe a little and start the countdown clock till Buzz comes and sets the record straight.. haha I love the accuracy we continue to strive for here... except for that G50.. way too slow!.tick ..tick.. tick..
    Cheers
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