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Thread: ATAG ASSAULT No.7: Eagle Day (Adlertag)

  1. #31
    Supporting Member DUI's Avatar
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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.7: Eagle Day (Adlertag)

    Thanks to everyone involved in the organization of this event! Always great to see so many pilots in the air.

    As it is rumoured that Germans often choose for a rather straight-forward communication approach, some personal two cents and proposals for future ATAG Assaults with yesterday's event but also the ones prior to No. 7 in mind:

    Attacking side:
    - Winning the mission is of rather low priority for me. I much prefer the amazing sight of a large group of organized bombers and fighters flying together over single planes heading out.
    - A pre-defined second in command of the bombers would be nice to keep up the organization in case the lead bomber drops out.
    - As bombers, take your time with everything you do - if it is taking-off together, rallying on a (rather safe) rendez-vous point or choosing a (rather safe) route to the target.
    - As fighters, well the obvious but often difficult to achieve points: be with the bomber formation at all time and try to fiercely protect them from imminent threads.

    Defending side:
    - In my humble opinion there should be some sort of gentlemens agreement: allow the bombers and escort some time and space to form up. Already shooting at the first bombers only a couple of minutes after take-off can ruin hours of planning and the joy of many.
    - There is always a handful of suicide pilots whose solely aim seems to be inflicting damage. Attacking bombers without any chance to survice, i. e. "parking" themselves behind bombers while being shot to pieces by the fighter escort. Will never understand this aspect - there is human pilots looking for a unique experience in those bombers, there is no enemies participating on ATAG Assault.

    And probably most important: somehow, Cliffs needs to get the server stability fixed again. Only 80 players on the server, no AI, no fancy scripts, still a crashing server.
    Last edited by DUI; Feb-09-2020 at 07:30.

  2. #32
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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.7: Eagle Day (Adlertag)

    Quote Originally Posted by DUI View Post
    Thanks to everyone involved in the organization of this event! Always great to see so many pilots in the air.

    As it is rumoured that Germans often choose for a rather straight-forward communication approach, some personal two cents and proposals for future ATAG Assaults with yesterday's event but also the ones prior to No. 7 in mind:

    Attacking side:
    - Winning the mission is of rather low priority for me. I much prefer the amazing sight of a large group of organized bombers and fighters flying together over single planes heading out.
    - A pre-defined second in command of the bombers would be nice to keep up the organization in case the lead bomber drops out.
    - As bombers, take your time with everything you do - if it is taking-off together, rallying on a (rather safe) rendez-vous point or choosing a (rather safe) route to the target.
    - As fighters, well the obvious but often difficult to achieve points: be with the bomber formation at all time and try to fiercely protect them from imminent threads.

    Defending side:
    - In my humble opinion there should be some sort of gentlemens agreement: allow the bombers and escort some time and space to form up. Already shooting at the first bombers only a couple of minutes after take-off can ruin hours of planning and the joy of many.
    - There is always a handful of suicide pilots whose solely aim seems to be inflicting damage. Attacking bombers without any chance to survice, i. e. "parking" themselves behind bombers while being shot to pieces by the fighter escort. Will never understand this aspect - there is human pilots looking for a unique experience in those bombers, there is no enemies participating on ATAG Assault.

    And probably most important: somehow, Cliffs needs to get the server stability fixed again. Only 80 players on the server, no AI, no fancy scripts, still a crashing server.
    Great points DUI. I definitely agree about bombers forming up in a defensive formation before setting off for the target rather than having to avoid fighters lurking above the bombers airfields. These missions need more of the 'fog of war' rather than a race to get to the target first. Daylight bombing was all about the formation as you so rightly point out.
    `What you have inherited from your ancestors, you must earn -- before you can own'. - AH.

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    Supporting Member JackMaXX's Avatar
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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.7: Eagle Day (Adlertag)

    Quote Originally Posted by DUI View Post
    Thanks to everyone involved in the organization of this event! Always great to see so many pilots in the air.

    As it is rumoured that Germans often choose for a rather straight-forward communication approach, some personal two cents and proposals for future ATAG Assaults with yesterday's event but also the ones prior to No. 7 in mind:........
    I would agree with they majority of Dui'#s observations......But on last evenings match Red appeared to be outnumbered by about 2:1 and fighters outnumbered bombers on the blue side by about the same margin. It would not be of any advantage for the Red side to allow a more powerful opponent with the advantage of surprise extra time to organise themselves.

    Re suicide attacks on bombers, any attack on bombers escorted by JG4 and JG52 is usually not going to end well for the attacker and downing the bombers is the Priority for the Red side.

    Thanks again to Drock for organising S!

  4. #34
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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.7: Eagle Day (Adlertag)

    Quote Originally Posted by DUI View Post
    Thanks to everyone involved in the organization of this event! Always great to see so many pilots in the air.

    As it is rumoured that Germans often choose for a rather straight-forward communication approach, some personal two cents and proposals for future ATAG Assaults with yesterday's event but also the ones prior to No. 7 in mind:

    Attacking side:
    - Winning the mission is of rather low priority for me. I much prefer the amazing sight of a large group of organized bombers and fighters flying together over single planes heading out.
    - A pre-defined second in command of the bombers would be nice to keep up the organization in case the lead bomber drops out.
    - As bombers, take your time with everything you do - if it is taking-off together, rallying on a (rather safe) rendez-vous point or choosing a (rather safe) route to the target.
    - As fighters, well the obvious but often difficult to achieve points: be with the bomber formation at all time and try to fiercely protect them from imminent threads.

    Defending side:
    - In my humble opinion there should be some sort of gentlemens agreement: allow the bombers and escort some time and space to form up. Already shooting at the first bombers only a couple of minutes after take-off can ruin hours of planning and the joy of many.
    - There is always a handful of suicide pilots whose solely aim seems to be inflicting damage. Attacking bombers without any chance to survice, i. e. "parking" themselves behind bombers while being shot to pieces by the fighter escort. Will never understand this aspect - there is human pilots looking for a unique experience in those bombers, there is no enemies participating on ATAG Assault.

    And probably most important: somehow, Cliffs needs to get the server stability fixed again. Only 80 players on the server, no AI, no fancy scripts, still a crashing server.
    Fully agree

    On attacking side, definitely more coordination needed. It would help to know the map in advance so we can prepare a plan of action and communicate it before the event, as opposed to improvising at last minute.

    On defending side, I agree with your comment on "suicidal pilots", however in real life pilots may have been confronted to this alternative if ultimate goal was to destroy the bombers "at all costs". Perhaps introducing some sort of death-related penalty, like a 10-minute delay before re-spawning (5 minutes if crash landed or parachuted alive), may make players think twice before "sacrificing" themselves...

    It is fair game to try and sneak in early to shoot bombers down. Up to the attacking side to find the parade, like fighters protecting the take-offs, and/or bombers heading to a random rdv point to gain altitude and reform, then set course to target. Time may be an issue here...

    And yes, we need to nail down the root cause(s) of these crashes...
    Last edited by ATAG_Noofy; Feb-09-2020 at 09:11.
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  5. #35
    ATAG Member ATAG_DRock's Avatar
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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.7: Eagle Day (Adlertag)

    Thanks for all the participation and support. These events were fun.


    Hopefully, TFS 5.0 brings us a stable server.

  6. #36
    Supporting Member 9./JG52 Meyer's Avatar
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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.7: Eagle Day (Adlertag)

    Salute all

    Thanks to all who took part and thanks to those who organised this event.
    Well done to the Blue bombers on winning the map , well done to the Red
    fighters on your spirited defence.
    The crashing of the server is a pain but I'm sure it will be sorted soon.
    Anyway we in 9./JG52 enjoyed ourselves and look forward to the next event

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    (Karaya)





    In memory of 9./JG52 Ziegler, Vermisse dich mein Freund

    http://www.9jg52.com/

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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.7: Eagle Day (Adlertag)

    Red was outnumberd By the Luftwaffe yesterday.. I didnt attack any Fighter/ Bomber at their airfield.

    In Reality This Tactic was used on Both sides. german nigtfighters and RAF-Squads practiced this Sort of Hunting during WW2. Very successful.

    I agree with dui, that Airfield-Attacks are not the Taktic of Choice, but sometimes, with weak forces, it is an opportunity. It is task of the Luftwaffe, to protect their own Bomber Formations.
    At all time, at all costs

    It is war, and everything Happens at war

    Nothing else, I expect.

    Dostal
    Last edited by Dostal; Feb-09-2020 at 14:02.

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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.7: Eagle Day (Adlertag)

    Last night's event was about coming together as a community and about having fun, as with any iteration of ATAG Assault. I dont know about you but strafing bombers on the ground/after takeoff few minutes into the mission is not my definition of fun, no matter if I'm in front of or behind the trigger.

    Seems like some people are preoccupied with "winning at all costs" at the expense of just having fun.

  9. #39
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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.7: Eagle Day (Adlertag)

    Quote Originally Posted by JG4_Karaya View Post
    Last night's event was about coming together as a community and about having fun, as with any iteration of ATAG Assault. I dont know about you but strafing bombers on the ground/after takeoff few minutes into the mission is not my definition of fun, no matter if I'm in front of or behind the trigger.

    Seems like some people are preoccupied with "winning at all costs" at the expense of just having fun.
    I agree its about community and having fun . The good things in life, a cool beer on a hot summers day, a walk along the seafront to take the air,..... and straffing a line of taxiing bombers who don't have air cover.

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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.7: Eagle Day (Adlertag)

    Quote Originally Posted by JG4_Karaya View Post
    Last night's event was about coming together as a community and about having fun, as with any iteration of ATAG Assault. I dont know about you but strafing bombers on the ground/after takeoff few minutes into the mission is not my definition of fun, no matter if I'm in front of or behind the trigger.

    Seems like some people are preoccupied with "winning at all costs" at the expense of just having fun.

    First of all, my heartfelt thanks to the organisers.
    It is great to have people around who dedicate their time in providing such fun for all of us!


    As was said before, Red was heavily outnumbered and despite the original announcement that said 'Luftwaffe will attack RAF airfields', just after the event began, someone hopped over on Red TS telling us, that each side has to destroy three airfields in order to win. Because we did not know about this, there was not a single Red bomber on the server. So, (as usual) there was not even the faintest hope that Red could win, no matter at what cost.

    Given the initial briefing, the one and only objective for Red was to protect its own airfields (i.e. 'spoil the fun' for the Blue side). The best way to stop an attack is to stop it before it begins. The attacking side has to find ways to avoid this. That's what the game is all about.

    How much fun do you think it is for you and your wingman to attack a 15 bomber formation with a cover of 30 fighters, once they are formed up?
    How much co-operation went into the Hurribomber low level attacks, when the Blue side knew exactly from wich airfield we had to start and could rip us all into pieces along the way?
    How much planning went into the co-ordinated Blennie attack that followed and still did not get through because we we outnumbered?

    Did anyone complain? Nope.
    Did we have fun anyway? Yes!


    S!


    DerDa

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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.7: Eagle Day (Adlertag)

    Great event guys and many thanks to the organisers and all who took part. This was my first big event and really enjoyed it, think i actually managed to get a few hits on a bomber before being destroyed by a 109 LOL. Look forward to the next one.

  13. #42
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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.7: Eagle Day (Adlertag)

    Well, I for one had a blast and a big hats off to all those who organised and, the participants who made no.7 such fun.

    My personal highlight ran up until the server crashed, leaving Eastchurch with 3 fellow 119th members in our Spitfires and heading for Manston in a gentle climb. Upon reaching Manston, it was under attack by 2 bombers, which appeared to have a 109 for escort. The interception was made, only to find a further 2 109s joining the fun. They were duly dispatched and we headed North to regroup. The server then crashed. It wasn't so much the initial engagement that sticks in my mind, more the chat, camaraderie and expectation that was experienced as we climbed into the sunny skies of Northern Kent. After the server crash, things became far more frenzied, fragmented and a bit more of a blur, mostly between Dover and English point.

    I was lucky enough to witness some great flying from both blue and red pilots and can't wait for no.8!
    Last edited by No.119_Marshy (VK-M); Feb-10-2020 at 07:04.

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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.7: Eagle Day (Adlertag)

    Well said Marshy!

    I have no quams,
    from my point it went quite well, the engagements hold a sufficient amount of risk for any fighter pilot. I try to stick with any formation I find or take off with, but once seperated do my own thing. Generally patrolling a little and usually ending up with a scuffle with a 109.
    I had a darn good one with one pilot on the French coast who, after plenty of twisting and turning, managed to grab the upper hand and bring me down, "props" for a good fight!

    I don't have the mentallity to ground strafe, but I do think that unless it is a specifically organised group on both sides for a specific engagement, then things should probably be left to be managed as they come, this is a natural part of how things work, and the whole point of having a different strategy introduced (which in some cases results in a 100% "Oh Sh*te" from the opposing force.
    However bringing all fighters into a group of at least three for both sides would be a great way to bring things into a more realistic fasion and bring the community together more on these events, eliminating too much of a random factor, and honestly reckon this would be great!
    The only thing is organising this between TS and standard Cliffs server alone.
    That much I will say, and perhaps organising a prevented respawn until the whole group is down could be viable, giving team mates in the squadron or flight of three the opportunity to spectate until this eventuates (though this much would probably require coding to introduce some sort of group joinup in server etc)

    All in all, still had a ton of fun!

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  16. #44
    ATAG Member ATAG_DRock's Avatar
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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.7: Eagle Day (Adlertag)

    Quote Originally Posted by DUI View Post
    Thanks to everyone involved in the organization of this event! Always great to see so many pilots in the air.

    As it is rumoured that Germans often choose for a rather straight-forward communication approach, some personal two cents and proposals for future ATAG Assaults with yesterday's event but also the ones prior to No. 7 in mind:

    Attacking side:
    - Winning the mission is of rather low priority for me. I much prefer the amazing sight of a large group of organized bombers and fighters flying together over single planes heading out.
    - A pre-defined second in command of the bombers would be nice to keep up the organization in case the lead bomber drops out.
    - As bombers, take your time with everything you do - if it is taking-off together, rallying on a (rather safe) rendez-vous point or choosing a (rather safe) route to the target.
    - As fighters, well the obvious but often difficult to achieve points: be with the bomber formation at all time and try to fiercely protect them from imminent threads.

    Defending side:
    - In my humble opinion there should be some sort of gentlemens agreement: allow the bombers and escort some time and space to form up. Already shooting at the first bombers only a couple of minutes after take-off can ruin hours of planning and the joy of many.
    - There is always a handful of suicide pilots whose solely aim seems to be inflicting damage. Attacking bombers without any chance to survice, i. e. "parking" themselves behind bombers while being shot to pieces by the fighter escort. Will never understand this aspect - there is human pilots looking for a unique experience in those bombers, there is no enemies participating on ATAG Assault.

    And probably most important: somehow, Cliffs needs to get the server stability fixed again. Only 80 players on the server, no AI, no fancy scripts, still a crashing server.
    Hi, DUI.

    I agree with your comments to a certain extent, but you are missing an important factor. Air dominance from well trained squadrons such as JG4 or JG52 alters the enemy's decisions. What chance does the enemy have against you and your squad? Sneaky tactics must be adopted to survive the dangerous skies pilots like you have created.

    It was my fault we were attacked so early, it took too long for me to organize bombers, then we all paid the price. Unfortunately, Tremcourt was our furthest base, and the spawn points had bombers starting nose to nose and unable to move. We had to start spawning in at Sempy, which threw our co-ordination off.
    Also, my communication with support was weak, and probably left us even more vulnerable.

    The idea of spawn delay after death might be a good one, but not enough to stop me from the same tactic.

    Do we have the right to take off safely, if we don't protect the sky around it? Tab 7-1 works, someone should see early attacker's approach if paying attention. If we started from further back, this would not be such an issue, again, our fault.

    If I were the enemy, I'd get to that formation as soon as possible. The longer it takes, the more the formation gets powerful and harder to stop. Allowing us to get up to altitude is not a good idea either, it gives those 109s an advantage.

    Should we now ask the enemy to wait until we are ready before they attack us? Really?
    Last edited by ATAG_DRock; Feb-12-2020 at 00:17.

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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.7: Eagle Day (Adlertag)

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_DRock View Post
    Tab 7-1 works, someone should see early attacker's approach if paying attention.
    Technical question to the specialists:

    How does Tab 7-1 radar actually work?
    Does it pick the first plane to spawn in, or the closest one?
    In other words, if say the enemy spawn a decoy plane first, and send it flying around at the other end of the map, would all Tab 7-1 remain locked on that decoy, leaving the radars blind to real attackers?
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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.7: Eagle Day (Adlertag)

    On the event map TAB7-1 did not work, at least in my experience. Gave me 30 kilometer readings at all times.

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  20. #47
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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.7: Eagle Day (Adlertag)

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_DRock View Post
    Hi, DUI.

    I agree with your comments to a certain extent, but you are missing an important factor. Air dominance from well trained squadrons such as JG4 or JG52 alters the enemy's decisions. What chance does the enemy have against you and your squad? Sneaky tactics must be adopted to survive the dangerous skies pilots like you have created.

    It was my fault we were attacked so early, it took too long for me to organize bombers, then we all paid the price. Unfortunately, Tremcourt was our furthest base, and the spawn points had bombers starting nose to nose and unable to move. We had to start spawning in at Sempy, which threw our co-ordination off.
    Also, my communication with support was weak, and probably left us even more vulnerable.

    The idea of spawn delay after death might be a good one, but not enough to stop me from the same tactic.

    Do we have the right to take off safely, if we don't protect the sky around it? Tab 7-1 works, someone should see early attacker's approach if paying attention. If we started from further back, this would not be such an issue, again, our fault.

    If I were the enemy, I'd get to that formation as soon as possible. The longer it takes, the more the formation gets powerful and harder to stop. Allowing us to get up to altitude is not a good idea either, it gives those 109s an advantage.

    Should we now ask the enemy to wait until we are ready before they attack us? Really?
    Some very interesting ideas and views coming out of this debate with regard to Assault Missions.

    May I add my thoughts on future missions from a bomber pilot's viewpoint.

    First a question. Is it possible to make use of any airfield on a sector of a map as a spawning point?

    For example, the Luftwaffe has perfectly good airfields on the extreme south east of the French map. I am thinking of fields near Arras, Amiens and as far south as Crecy. Also in the west at Le Havre and around Caen and Carquebut. Many appear to be suitable for use as bomber bases to attack targets in south west and southern England. In addition many of these airfields are not equipped with the 'H' shaped fighter bays which I believe may have caused the bombers such spawning problems at Tramecourt in Assault 7. Although the bombers would be at extreme range and require full fuel loads to reach their targets there use as departure points would have the advantage of being at great distance from any possible RAF, early pre-emptive strike. My suggestion is for a bomber force to be split into two forces and would spawn at two adjacent or very near airfields. Each force would have it's own commander to organise assembly and formation and would take-off and form up separately. The individual forces would then proceed to a safe rallying point and then merge with each other and proceed to the target as one fully assembled force. This split take off i think would make life easier for the force commanders as well as speeding force assembly and departure. In the mean time fighter escort could be split between forces, one covering the bombers approach to the coast and their target and one smaller force providing protection of the bomber rallying points.
    The obvious disadvantage of attacking at extreme range is the one that the Luftwaffe faced during the Battle of Britain, that is the escorts would be at the limit of their endurance. The bombers, however would have more chance if they are in good, compact formation and providing mutual defensive protection instead of being spread out along a route.
    On return the bombers could return to any, near safe, friendly airfield.

    Comments and opinions please.
    `What you have inherited from your ancestors, you must earn -- before you can own'. - AH.

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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.7: Eagle Day (Adlertag)

    The above was essentially what was done.

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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.7: Eagle Day (Adlertag)

    First part


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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.7: Eagle Day (Adlertag)

    We made an attack on the airfield of Limpne. We were intercepted, but after the attack. Hot event.
    Tramkur airfield is one disorder.
    (google translator)
    _________________
    Командир первой группы штабного звена (Gruppenkommandeur) борт №1 (G1 + AB) Major, Начальник штаба.

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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.7: Eagle Day (Adlertag)

    Otlichnoye video spasibo tovarishch

    Cheers Flakboss
    `What you have inherited from your ancestors, you must earn -- before you can own'. - AH.

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  27. #52
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    Re: ATAG ASSAULT No.7: Eagle Day (Adlertag)

    Nice video thanks for posting

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