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Thread: How to attack bombers properly?

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    How to attack bombers properly?

    Guys, how to safely attack bombers, lol?

    Is there a video or some discussions of how to properly sic a Hurricane or Spitfire on a flock of bombers. I know some general ideas like try to attack from the front hemisphere, but I'd rather need some visual and mental cues for that.

    All your inputs and links are very much appreciated.

    Thanks!

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    Re: How to attack bombers properly?

    Hi
    There is an old quote that goes around that has been used or ascribed to both airforce and ground units during WW2.
    The loose airforce version was something to the affect of 'attacking bomber formations is like like running through rain and trying not to getting wet.'

    Realistically a single fighter against any formation of bombers is at a huge disadvantage. Even 1v1 with a big bomber.
    Your only advantage is speed.
    They will typically be able to outgun you and bring more guns to bare on you/

    Everything has to be done at speed to mitigate the accuracy of their fire towards you. Quick pass, 1-2 second burst and get away.
    Each bomber has a defined arc of defense with some less defended angles which are harder to exploit.

    Aim for the cockpit or an engine. Rinse and repeat but stay fast. Dropping almost straight down from alt with the sun at your back was easier for me at least than starting with a head-on and then getting stuck in a horizontal plane of a fight. You keep your energy and your distance.
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    Supporting Member Vlerkies's Avatar
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    Re: How to attack bombers properly?

    Heres sorta what I am getting at, not a very good example, my skills clearly sucked, but the same principle applies.
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    Re: How to attack bombers properly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vlerkies View Post
    Aim for the cockpit or an engine. Rinse and repeat but stay fast. Dropping almost straight down from alt with the sun at your back was easier for me at least than starting with a head-on and then getting stuck in a horizontal plane of a fight. You keep your energy and your distance.
    Yes, and therefore I'd rather need some more of like cues and geometry for when and how to start an attack.

    Thank you.
    Last edited by Sabrefly; Apr-11-2020 at 16:23.

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    Re: How to attack bombers properly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vlerkies View Post
    Heres sorta what I am getting at, not a very good example, my skills clearly sucked, but the same principle applies.
    Great video, but I don't fly germans. In the British Hurricane or Spitfire it's a totally different business.

    Thanks!

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    Re: How to attack bombers properly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabrefly View Post
    Great video, but I don't fly germans. In the British Hurricane or Spitfire it's a totally different business.

    Thanks!
    No, it really isnt. Good luck
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    Re: How to attack bombers properly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabrefly View Post
    Guys, how to safely attack bombers, lol?

    Is there a video or some discussions of how to properly sic a Hurricane or Spitfire on a flock of bombers. I know some general ideas like try to attack from the front hemisphere, but I'd rather need some visual and mental cues for that.

    All your inputs and links are very much appreciated.

    Thanks!
    Hi Sabrefly - there's been some discussion of this topic over the years and here's one thread that you might find useful if you havent already read it. I dont think the discussion is specific to Hurricanes/Spitfires but in general the principles are the same regardless of aircraft type

    https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.c...bombers+attack

    And this one has a link to a US WW2 training video that has lots of info about gunnery etc - might also be useful

    https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.c...acking+bombers

    Ezzie
    Last edited by ATAG_Ezzie; Apr-11-2020 at 17:39.

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    Re: How to attack bombers properly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vlerkies View Post
    No, it really isnt. Good luck
    Yes it is I'm afraid, 109 or 110 with cannon can kill a bomber quite quickly in a fast pass. spitty or hurri will need to land a long burst of .303 to kill bomber,
    Starting out a red pilot should try to kill one engine. once leaking or smoking leave it, don't get greedy, move to next target,
    With practice and experience you can try to target cockpit.
    I prefer to target engines as fuselage is a lot on empty space!

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    Re: How to attack bombers properly?

    Shoot them in the mouth works 99.9% of the time <S> Fatal
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    Re: How to attack bombers properly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vlerkies View Post
    No, it really isnt
    Yes, it is.

    You can't just swoop down with positive Gs on a target in Hurricane like you easily can in Bf-109 is off the top..

    Thanks.

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    Re: How to attack bombers properly?

    Quote Originally Posted by TWC_Fatal_Error View Post
    Shoot them in the mouth works 99.9% of the time <S> Fatal
    It's kinda hard to overtake them enough to be in the position to make a proper u-turn and particularly if they start meandering.

    Thanks.

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    Re: How to attack bombers properly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabrefly View Post
    Yes, it is.

    You can't just swoop down with positive Gs on a target in Hurricane like you easily can in Bf-109 is off the top..

    Thanks.
    Gravity works the same for everyone, we can all swoop down. The debate normally revolves about the climb up.

    G's! You mean negative G?

    Ok, I am really trying to offer help, but your statement above makes 'zero' sense.
    There is nothing fundamentally different in the approach of attacking bomber formations other than the types/number of bombers you may be attacking and their defensive strengths.

    If its a formation (99% of the time), they have many more guns than you that can point directly at you, and they will use them. Your absolute best friend is your speed, and with that you make fleeting attacks, keeping your separation from them. If they split from formation cause they drop an engine or can't keep up because of other aerodynamic damage, they (the formation) become exponentially weaker. Then you can pick off the stragglers a lot easier.
    The general idea is to mitigate the amount of bombers over their intended target. If 10 enroute and 2 made it to target, thats pretty good effort. A single fighter, or even 2 or 3 are not easily going to go home with 10 quick bomber kills between them without any scratches on their paint, or heads, or go home at all.

    A 'glorious 109' , Spitfire, Hurri or even a WW1 Sopwith Camel can and did employ the same tactic.
    If , referencing 'G's , you are referring to the deficiency in the carb engines of the Allied planes and dear old Miss Schilling, rest assured, you can do it, it is not nearly as nerfed as it should be ( a separate heated debate ) and a simple half roll then dive down entirely negates that idiosyncrasy instantly. Even in a german fighter we don't go nose over but half roll and dive, just better airmanship.
    Last edited by Vlerkies; Apr-11-2020 at 20:52.
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    Re: How to attack bombers properly?

    S!~

    In combat..whether a scuffle , fist fight , or air to air combat..keep one thing clear. Your training..or lack thereof..will be quickly apparent. Attacking bombers is basically like this. Get above them..move to attack speed...coming in off angle...beam if possible...muster your courage...and fire in close. Pour out you machine guns into the cockpit...and wingroot...engines are another target. But mostly...speed , altitude , and marksmanship.

    Cannon can help..but it's mostly guns in close. Don't forget to act like those bombers are heading for your town...your base with your dog waiting for you...you main squeeze longing for you. Blast their asses back to the stone age. Be aggressive and kill them all
    .

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    Re: How to attack bombers properly?

    I meant negative G's in case somebody doubted.

    Half roll doesn't work well for me, still can't accelerate enough when diving down because the engine stalls periodically. I'll try diving from the sides though, will work on the technique.

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    Re: How to attack bombers properly?

    Quote Originally Posted by AKA_Blasto View Post
    Get above them..move to attack speed...coming in off angle
    What would be your target attack speed in a Hurricane diving down on He 111?

    I'm not asking about tactics, formations etc. it's rather about techniques.

    Thanks
    Last edited by Sabrefly; Apr-11-2020 at 22:13.

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    Re: How to attack bombers properly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabrefly View Post
    I meant negative G's in case somebody doubted.

    Half roll doesn't work well for me, still can't accelerate enough when diving down because the engine stalls periodically. I'll try diving from the sides though, will work on the technique.
    No sweat, the effect or actual performance impact of the engine 'sound' when it cuts is really negligible. Just ask any 109 pilot in this sim that has had a Hurri or Spitty on his tail and gone full nose down to try and escape, despite what Douglas Bader says, just an anecdote, who is he anyway
    Practice in free flight, you just need positive G on the carb, level flight and roll with no nose down, you can do it without any penalty.

    Come from high, approach the formation like you are herding sheep from the flank and when slightly ahead of being abeam of them then you can comfortably roll in for an attack pass.
    If you can do this from the frontal approach even better, but then swoop through and climb back out to the front again. Most all bombers are better configured to defend from rear attack, less bullet coming at you from the front quarters.
    Keep your speed up, don't get suckered into turning in again to early and bleeding it. If slow, extend, climb and put more energy in the pot.
    Last edited by Vlerkies; Apr-11-2020 at 22:17.
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    Re: How to attack bombers properly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabrefly View Post
    What would be your target attack speed in a Hurricane diving down on He 111?

    I'm not asking about tactics, formations etc. it's rather about techniques.

    Thanks
    As fast as the Hurri will go before it starts to fall to pieces.
    You have maybe a couple of seconds on target, its never going to be lining up and flying in. So a lot of planning in your head as to where the bomber will be, what your speed will be when you get there based on where you started out at, etc. It takes practice.
    Make a quick mission with a formation of tiger moths for shits and giggles and start yourself above them and practice the diving in and shooting.
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    Re: How to attack bombers properly?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackMaXX View Post
    Yes it is I'm afraid, 109 or 110 with cannon can kill a bomber quite quickly in a fast pass. spitty or hurri will need to land a long burst of .303 to kill bomber,
    Starting out a red pilot should try to kill one engine. once leaking or smoking leave it, don't get greedy, move to next target,
    With practice and experience you can try to target cockpit.
    I prefer to target engines as fuselage is a lot on empty space!
    My ride online was an E1, ask anyone.
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    Re: How to attack bombers properly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vlerkies View Post
    No sweat, the effect or actual performance impact of the engine 'sound' when it cuts is really negligible.
    Good point

    Quote Originally Posted by Vlerkies View Post
    Come from high, approach the formation like you are herding sheep from the flank and when slightly ahead of being abeam of them then you can comfortably roll in for an attack pass.
    Yes, I'll try from the flanks, not from high above like my AI wingmen tend to do it (and I try to follow them, lol).

    Quote Originally Posted by Vlerkies View Post
    If you can do this from the frontal approach even better, but then swoop through and climb back out to the front again. Most all bombers are better configured to defend from rear attack, less bullet coming at you from the front quarters.
    But it's really difficult to overtake them enough for the frontal approach after the first pass, especially when they begin to maneuver.

    Thanks!
    Last edited by Sabrefly; Apr-12-2020 at 08:42.

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    Re: How to attack bombers properly?

    Here are my thoughts on this subject. I fly red, so take that into consideration.

    Attacking from the front is the safest, but for me has been "hit or miss" so say it simply, Adolf Galland I am not. We have no cannon, if you don't hit the pilot little damage is usually done. It is also very time consuming which has to be taken into consideration when enemy fighters are around, or the bombers target is close, or if you are like me, you would rather shot than fly around.

    So a rear attack is what I prefer. And the best way to down the bomber is to set one engine on fire. Assume you have a loadout that you like, concentrate your fire onto one engine. Ok that takes a little time and you have to be steady as you set up behind the bomber, which leaves you open to return fire. You already know all of this, but I had to say it. Here is what I do.... it does not always work, but it helps.

    Start shooting at 300 meter/yards. The Spit and Hury are very susceptible to the horizontal convergence. Anything further away from the sweet spot, or closer in is not as effective. If you have your convergence set at 150 for example that is now close you have to get to your target to do real damage in a short time. And those short distances to the rear of the bomber will get you killed, the longer you are back there setting straight and level the shorter your life span. I feel that the game allows the enemy gunners to be ineffective outside of 250 meters/yards, and marginally effective between 200-250. This week my horizontal convergence is set to 250.

    Don't camp on the bombers rear, start your attack slightly below, not all bombers have belly guns, so it is usually safe down there. Know where the gunners are located on each bomber, HE 111's for example have guns guns guns. And the Condor has a canon, so watch out for that. I get to effective range quick than throttle back in order to give me a little more time in the "effective" range of my guns. Don't do this long, but a few more seconds helps.

    It's nice when you can kill the dorsal gunner or the tail gunner, but again for me that has usually been luck when that happens, it takes a very accurate shot, and I can't see the gunner well until I am much closer than the effective range of my guns. Knowing where they are on the bomber helps, but I have not been successful at this option.
    Break off the attack before you fly over the bomber formation, I usually turn hard to the right or left depending on what end of the formation I am attacking. And start the whole process over again. I have asked the RAF for bullet proof water lines, but no response so far.

    So to recap.
    Shoot accurately at one small part of the bomber
    Don't spent too much time behind the bomber, I'd say 3 seconds.
    Have a loadout in your A/C that will destroy an engine and set it on fire.
    Horizontal Convergence is your call, as we also have to fight other A/C as well.

    And one last thought about shooting accurately as it pertains to Joystick sensitivity. In General.... The less sensitive your joystick is, the more accurately you can deliver a shot on a fixed target. You cannot concentrate fire power with the A/C bobby around or rolling, it has to set steady while the guns are firing. However we do not always shoot at fixed targets, so there is a trade off that you have to account for. Just be aware of that.

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    Re: How to attack bombers properly?

    The best way to attack bombers?

    Take a Beaufighter!

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    Re: How to attack bombers properly?

    Great range of opinions from people with experience Saber, I'll condense it if I may..
    Its the Carnegie Hall system, Practice, Practice ,practice and see what works for you. S!

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    Re: How to attack bombers properly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Bill View Post
    And one last thought about shooting accurately as it pertains to Joystick sensitivity. In General.... The less sensitive your joystick is, the more accurately you can deliver a shot on a fixed target. You cannot concentrate fire power with the A/C bobby around or rolling, it has to set steady while the guns are firing. However we do not always shoot at fixed targets, so there is a trade off that you have to account for. Just be aware of that.
    A lot of good info to digest.

    Regarding the Joystick sensitivity:

    Where do you fine-tune your joystick's elevator, aileron and rudder axes? Is it in you joystick's app or in CoD's Controls?

    I recall I read somewhere that generally it was better to leave the curves linear in your joystick's app and fine-tune them in a game where possible.

    If you set your joystick's curves in the game's Controls could you post your numbers here?

    Thanks!

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    Re: How to attack bombers properly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabrefly View Post
    A lot of good info to digest.

    Regarding the Joystick sensitivity:

    Where do you fine-tune your joystick's elevator, aileron and rudder axes? Is it in you joystick's app or in CoD's Controls?

    I recall I read somewhere that generally it was better to leave the curves linear in your joystick's app and fine-tune them in a game where possible.

    If you set your joystick's curves in the game's Controls could you post your numbers here?

    Thanks!
    I have owned only 3 or 4 joysticks in my time, and they where all different as far as settings and tuning goes. I could give you my numbers, but I do not suggest you just go ahead and use them without considerable testings.

    I presently am using a joystick that allows tuning the curves within the joysticks software, VKB, and that is what I used mostly, however I tweak my settings using the CLOD control axis settings. This allows me to have a profile within CLOD for a Spitfire, a Beaufighter, and a G-50 and more if I choose. So I make the joystick's curves a little twitchy within the VKB software, and downgrade them using the CLOD settings for each A/C. I really don't know which is the best way to go as far as app, or CLOD. I did use CLOD axis control settings exclusively for over a year and had no complaints.

    I have a practice mission set up for testing loads and joystick settings. It is Single Player #9 mission, which I think started out as Red attacking a formation of Blue bombers from the rear. Bombers will stay in formation, not scatter. I changed the AC to G-50's as I did not want return fire. And as long as I use a single set fighter to attack the G-50' just stay in a nice line as I shot at them. It takes a lot of hits to bring down these nasty little buggers , but you should be able to get all six with one magazine. But don't get your controls to sluggish.

    I have another practice mission set up for testing response of controls, and my Track IR settings. It is mission #1. Set your Wingman number to just 1 wingman. Now try to shoot him down. You should be able to do it.

    I can't remember if I had to do anything in the FULL MISSION BUILDER to make my modified mission work, modified several, some required adjustments via the Full Mission Builder option. Let me know if what I suggested above is not working for you.

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    Re: How to attack bombers properly?

    The Cats . . . proven method.

    Approach the bomber formation high and to the left or right (your preference) of the formation.

    Establish parallel direction until near the tail of the formation, choose an outside bomber (this is important as it eliminates crossfire from the interior of the formation), descend at speed and engage at an angle of approx 45 degrees (NOT dead astern), open fire with appropriate lead - you will end up just astern of your target. Then get out of Dodge fast - dive away from the formation (NOT through it as you will be engaged by the "box" formation). Climb when clear and establish a left or right egress to return to your original station (depending on your side of the formation) - get to the altitude above and to one side of the "box". Rinse and repeat - always picking the target to the outer edge of the formation - this will eliminate the crossfire and all defensive fire will come from only one direction.

    Survival rate very high.

    ps. Choose your point of aim carefully - inner engine or wing root on whichever side from where you attack.

    Good Hunting.
    Cats . . .
    Last edited by Catseye; Apr-14-2020 at 23:05.
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    Re: How to attack bombers properly?

    S!!~

    With advanced speed- breaking up and away after a guns run- keeping in a constant bank- can lead off the bombers gunnery- and leave one in a position above in order to choose another target- or come back in on ones first target. If there are say 8 bombers- immediately- from the lead bombers heading- assign 1 thru 8 on them. No. 1 from the left- and so on - no. 8 from the right. You can then divvy up those bombers to wingmen- and quickly call out which one you are about to hit- and reduce the amount of spraying them all- which gets you killed- and is almost worthless- even with cannons. That said- when you have one last pass- and the bombers are close- give those bastards the end all- lay out your guns like there is no tomorrow. Of course there is a tomorrow- but act like there isn't- I squeezed numerous cheap kills- and disrupted how many bomber streams- with the one pass blast away. Hope this helps. Speed - alt - aggressiveness- and marksmanship.
    As far as stick settings- going sensitive has major advantages in a dogfight- and major disadvantages when attacking at high angles on bombers. Ie; tail swing- its better to go smooth and steady- improves ones aim. Get in close and watch the tracers- look 'through'- not at your gunsight. Good luck.

    S!~ AKA_Blasto
    Last edited by AKA_Blasto; Apr-14-2020 at 20:18.
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    Re: How to attack bombers properly?

    My 10c: to some reason I shoot better if I assign the trigger to a button on my throttle.

    Whatever works ))

    Thanks!

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    Supporting Member Vlerkies's Avatar
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    Re: How to attack bombers properly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabrefly View Post
    A lot of good info to digest.

    Regarding the Joystick sensitivity:

    Where do you fine-tune your joystick's elevator, aileron and rudder axes? Is it in you joystick's app or in CoD's Controls?

    I recall I read somewhere that generally it was better to leave the curves linear in your joystick's app and fine-tune them in a game where possible.

    If you set your joystick's curves in the game's Controls could you post your numbers here?

    Thanks!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sabrefly View Post
    My 10c: to some reason I shoot better if I assign the trigger to a button on my throttle.

    Whatever works ))

    Thanks!
    On curves, let me try demystify this a little bit.
    In the flight sim community, across many flight sims not just this one, you will have people saying they don't apply curves and those that do apply curves. It's a mixed bag and like everything else in flight simming you do what works for you and your hardware you have available. Period! There is no right answer.

    That out of the way in virtually every combat simulator I have had I have used the options to set curves in the X and Y axis. Some to a greater or lessor extent.
    I also use them in my rudder control, all around the very center point. It is really up to you though what works and what doesn't for you depending on how you fly, or again the hardware you have.
    It also helps if you have hardware with a glitchy pot/sensor to mitigate unwanted inputs occurring.

    Im sure its been posted many times, but from memory the sensitivity slider induces the 'S' curve, that being it all the way in the other direction to what it defaults at (i think to the right, value 1 or 2) Someone will correct me.
    So at default its a straight line, if you move that slider to the right it induces an S curve off the center.

    Clod doesnt have a graphical screen to reference this anymore like older versions of IL2, or DCS now, but if you crank it to the right you will get a smooth S curve induced into that axis.
    Personally found it best to match the X and Y axis to whatever I settled at.
    There is other standalone software that will give you more options but that should be sufficient.

    Its all your personal preference so play around with it a bit, it just smooths out the center movement of the axis, does not affect the full gain, or reach of the stick control.
    http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=4036&dateline=1382347  940

    If it's brown, shoot it down!

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    Re: How to attack bombers properly?

    For what it matters I have CH Pedals, Semi-Franken Throttle Pro, Fighterstick, Quadrant and some other less importnat input devices (Saitek, GoFlight, MFDs etc.)

    I've been with CH rig for almost 20 years, bought most of Thrustmaster's significant releases including hand-made extensions etc., but never got used to it and remained with CH due to the programming mostly and quite reasonable tightness vs smoothness )).


    Thanks.

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    Supporting Member Vlerkies's Avatar
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    Re: How to attack bombers properly?

    I have had some of the best and the nastiest hardware over the years hehe, but we make do with what we have when we have it.

    If you set that axis sensitivity in the axis setting page of controls, you can sort off graphically see the movement in the green sliders, how it reacts when you adjust the stick/controller input vs how the slider reacts, it will give guidance or at least a reference point.

    Keep asking questions Sabrefly, this community on Atag has always been stellar in offering assistance to anyone as and when needed.
    http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=4036&dateline=1382347  940

    If it's brown, shoot it down!

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