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Thread: You had me at....

  1. #1
    ATAG_Colander's Avatar
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    You had me at....



    "Selbstfahrlafette auf Fahrgestell Tiger I mit 38 cm Raketen Werfer 61"


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    Re: You had me at....

    See this is why I can never truely love German tanks. No one will ever know what the darn thing is called!

    I like the good old British tanks, something short and crisp like "Challenger," "Charioteer," "Churchill." Now those are some dandy names!


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    ATAG Member ATAG_Torian's Avatar
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    Re: You had me at....

    And not only do we not know what they are but even translators don't know
    "Self-propelled flaps on chassis Tiger I with 38 cm rockets launcher 61"
    For cryin out loud Germany, stop all that German chit chat and speak properer Englisch !
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    Supporting Member Karaya's Avatar
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    Re: You had me at....

    Or just call it "Sturmtiger"

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    Re: You had me at....

    Quote Originally Posted by JG4_Karaya View Post
    Or just call it "Sturmtiger"
    Yeah, a lot easier
    Otherwise imagine the poor enigma operators

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    TF Leadership RAF74_Buzzsaw's Avatar
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    Re: You had me at....

    Just another very complex new tank version which took too long to build and was too expensive.

    If the Germans had simplified their tank production down to a few model types and focused on getting the maximum numbers built, they would have been a lot better off.

    The German tanks may have been individually superior, but for a Lanser sitting in a trench as the T-34's or Shermans approach with no Panzers in sight to support him, any tank is better than no tank.

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    Supporting Member Karaya's Avatar
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    Re: You had me at....

    They were planning to cut down on models with the future Entwicklungsserie (E-Serie). The war ended however before any of these entered production. They were all pretty heavily armored and armed and mostly based off of existing designs such as the Panther, King Tiger and such. Commonality of parts was intended to cut down on production and ease maintenance and supply.

    I think the Wehrmacht would have been best off if they had stopped Panzer III & IV production by 1943 and used the existing production lines to focus on StuG IV and Jagdpanzer IV production. And instead of the mechanically troublesome Tiger Is and IIs a fleet of Panthers would have been of better use.

    800px-Entwicklung_panzer.png

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    Re: You had me at....

    Quote Originally Posted by JG4_Karaya View Post
    They were planning to cut down on models with the future Entwicklungsserie (E-Serie). The war ended however before any of these entered production. They were all pretty heavily armored and armed and mostly based off of existing designs such as the Panther, King Tiger and such. Commonality of parts was intended to cut down on production and ease maintenance and supply.

    I think the Wehrmacht would have been best off if they had stopped Panzer III & IV production by 1943 and used the existing production lines to focus on StuG IV and Jagdpanzer IV production. And instead of the mechanically troublesome Tiger Is and IIs a fleet of Panthers would have been of better use.

    800px-Entwicklung_panzer.png
    The Panther was not very reliable either... not as bad as the Tiger, but its engine and gearbox were bad because the Panther was too heavy for them.

    The Tiger II's were a complete failure in practical terms... these vehicles were typically broken down nearly half of their service life. Its engine and gearbox was a joke.

    1943 was already too late to make the switch to simplified designs, the Wehrmacht procurement branch had made their decisions back in 1941.

    When they saw the first T-34, they realized they needed a new design... and they should have basically copied it with a German turret, gun and optics... instead they made the very complex and difficult to maintain Panther... which took forever to come into service in numbers... and was too heavy... so that it over strained the available gearbox and engine.

    Quantity is key.

    What is generally not realized is that tank vs tank was not the most common combat in WWII... and in all those situations, (which were very often) when it was tank vs infantry... the Sherman was a better fighting vehicle than the Panther... and the T-34 was not too far behind.

    A Sherman with the standard 75mm gun could get off 4 shots to every one a Panther could fire... and had more shells on board... had the same number of MG's, more if you count the commander's 50 caliber. So versus infantry or AT guns it was more effective.

    The Germans tried to make up with this by cancelling the Pz III and focusing on using the chassis with the StuG series, and as you say, they should have put all their Pz IV chassis production into building more Assault guns... but Hitler wasn't willing to give up his option to go on the offensive... which required tanks. And a self-propelled gun is not nearly as effective as a tank in the attack.

    Germans needed a medium tank replacement for Pz IV in 1942.... they had time to design and build this, they didn't get it done. The Panther was not a medium... it's 45 tons... in all real evaluations, it is a heavy tank. And it was extremely expensive to produce.

    If the Wehrmacht had designed a lighter medium tank the available engines and gearboxes would not have been over strained and the breakdowns would not have happened. The Wehrmacht didn't need to use the Panther's 75mm in this tank to be effective... the standard 75mm L-48 from the Mk IV was more than effective through the war versus the majority of Allied/Soviet tanks.

    A new medium tank with the T-34's sloping armor, a good two man turret, (with proper slope) with the 75mm L-48 could have been produced in larger numbers and would have been lighter and more reliable.
    Last edited by RAF74_Buzzsaw; May-07-2020 at 17:29.

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    Re: You had me at....

    I don't know much about tanks, but what you write reminds me a lot of what happened in the aircraft production.
    A concentration on a few models that had their strenghts but were mainly favoured because their producers were the best brown-nosers.
    The unwillingness to develop new, much better types, because of the illusion that 'we can win the war with what we have within a few month'.
    The stubborn decision to prepare fot 'the attack' and produce bombers in large numbers until mid-44.

    Still, even the very best and forward technical designs would not have changed the two most evident reason for the military desaster:
    1) around the end of '43 at latest a large number of experienced soldiers, tank commanders, pilots, ground crews etc. were dead or POW, mainly because of stupid refusals to allow retreat.
    The importance of well trained individuals is something the Nazis never realised, because they fantasised about racial supremacy, so an 'Arian' didn't need proper training to win.

    2) the enormous predominance of the allies in economy and available resources. If you can put 10 fighters against 1, the 10 don't have to be of superior quality, even less if the 10 pilots on the one side are well trained, while the 1 on the other is a scared teenage-noob.

    At the latest from 1941 on, when they decided to attack the Soviet Union and declared war on America, there was not any chance for Germany to win anymore.

    And it is a very, very good thing they did not win.
    The tragedy is that it took so long and did cost so many millions of lives until the inevitable defeat happened.

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    Supporting Member Karaya's Avatar
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    Re: You had me at....

    Quote Originally Posted by DerDa View Post
    I don't know much about tanks, but what you write reminds me a lot of what happened in the aircraft production.
    A concentration on a few models that had their strenghts but were mainly favoured because their producers were the best brown-nosers.
    I don't know if this was so much the case with the Luftwaffe and their equipment. When the Luftwaffe was running their contest for a new fighter aircraft, which the Bf109 eventually won, there wasn't much serious competition except for the Heinkel 112. And yes, Heinkel liked to play the bias card, arguing that he was passed off due to political lobbying, but fact of the matter is that Heinkel was very well respected whereas Messerschmitt had a bad standing with Erhard Milch, who had the last say on what was to be purchased and produced for the Luftwaffe. The disdain of Milch for Messerschmitt was so great in fact that the Bf109 nearly was not allowed to enter the contest in the first place.

    And as for Heinkels later He100, it was a stellar performer on paper when using the evaporative cooling system. That made it a great racer but a poor war machine. It was a flying radiator leak waiting to happen. With the more orthodox liquid cooling system its performance wasnt so stellar anymore. Besides, by the time the He100 was offered to the RLM, the latter was searching for a backup fighter to the Bf109 using a different engine (BMW801) so as to not be entirely reliant on production of the Daimler Benz engines. Also the development potential of the He100 remains speculative. It was a smaller, lighter fighter with almost 2m^2 less wing area than the Bf109E.

    The strife for better, more performant fighter models was indeed lackluster. The various Bf109 replacements proposed by Messerschmitt were all found to not provide any substantial advantages over the existing Bf109s in production and Focke Wulf was procrastinating with their various pet projects including for example the FW190C. It wasnt until end of 1944 that Focke Wulf came up with a design that proved an improvement over the 190A. However the 190D was just a stop gap and the originally intended Ta152 was not ready in substantial numbers by the end of WW2. It's also an indication of the delusion of the RLM that both 152H and C were intended as (secondary) escort fighters with great fuel capacities. By the time of the Ta152s first flight the Jägernotprogramm had basically eliminated the German bomber force, there was nothing left to escort. And a chronic shortage of fuel meant that the Luftwaffe struggled getting aircraft into the air as is.
    Last edited by Karaya; May-08-2020 at 04:37.

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    Re: You had me at....

    I stand corrected about Heinkel and Messerschmitt.
    There have been a lot of very brown noses around

    But I also thought about the Do 353 that had it first flight in 1943 or the crazy idea to use the 262 as a bomber.

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    Supporting Member Karaya's Avatar
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    Re: You had me at....

    I think what was more critical than the development of new types and what eventually broke the Luftwaffe's back were the shortcomings of the pilot training program. Flight hours were more and more cut down and too much time was wasted on doctrine instead of being put into tactics, gunnery, etc. The Luftwaffe would have benefitted greatly from a rotation system like the one employed by the western allies, where experienced pilots were sent home to train new pilots. Instead the Luftwaffe relied on a core of highly experienced aces who never got the chance to pass on their knowledge. This core slowly but surely melted away in the furnace above Europe. The new recruits barely got enough training in to operate their aircraft and were for the most part more of a threat to themselves than to the enemy. As Pierre Clostermann recounts in his book The Big Show, there was no middle ground in the Luftwaffe. There were the aces, and there were the greenhorns and nothing in between.

    And aircraft development aside, no aircraft besides perhaps a long range strategic bomber could have averted defeat on the eastern front. Too many fronts, too many roofs on fire. Not being able to shut down business on the western front with the Battle of Britain to concentrate on the east was the snowball that started the avalanche and it only got worse for Nazi Germany from there, despite initial victories.

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    Re: You had me at....

    [QUOTE=JG4_Karaya;352918]I think what was more critical than the development of new types and what eventually broke the Luftwaffe's back were the shortcomings of the pilot training program.


    Flying was/is dangerous enough as it is, without having someone trying to shoot you down...

    "And this was just in the continental U.S. There were many thousands more wrecks and deaths overseas. Looking at totals for the entire war is even more sobering. The U.S. suffered 52,173 aircrew combat losses. But another 25,844 died in accidents. More than half of these died in the continental U.S. The U.S. lost 65,164 planes during the war, but only 22,948 in combat. There were 21,583 lost due to accidents in the U.S., and another 20,633 lost in accidents overseas."

    https://www.realclearhistory.com/art...ww_ii_412.html

    I would imagine it was much worse for the Germans trying to train while under treat of constant attack

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    Re: You had me at....

    I'm not much of an expert on these things, what I know is that in hindsight the Germans could have done a lot better...and I am extremely glad they did not.
    Talk about one fourtunate outcome!

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    Re: You had me at....

    I'm a simple Flieger...I see a T-shirt with a German panzer draw on it...I press like...
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