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Thread: Germany 1945: Sensationally restored film footage by George Stevens

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    Germany 1945: Sensationally restored film footage by George Stevens



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    Re: Germany 1945: Sensationally restored film footage by George Stevens

    If you go to 6:50, shots of the Reichskanzlei, they are pointing out the spot where Hitler's body was burned after he committed suicide.

    Body was taken away by the Russians and after it was examined, it was cremated and the ashes disposed of.

    German Civilians had been told by Goebbels they would be either exterminated or enslaved if Germany fell, so their relatively generous treatment by the Western Allies was a surprise.

    After word got around that the Americans and British were not out for revenge, many German villages and towns in the last months kicked their Nazi officials out and prevented them from organizing last ditch defenses... these types of defenses inevitably resulted in the American or British troops using artillery to clear out the resistance to avoid their own casualties... and therefore the destruction of much of these villages.

    On the Eastern Front there was some atrocities by the Soviets when they first entered German territory, and certainly mass rapes, but considering the between 13 and 19 million estimated Soviet civilian dead, the retaliation was relatively mild. (Germany suffered between 1.5 and 3.0 million military related civilian deaths, included in that total are 300,000 German civilians murdered by the Nazis, and another 200,000 mentally disabled or handicapped children and adults euthanized by the Nazis) Stalin ordered Soviet troops who were involved in killings to be prosecuted... he didn't want to alienate the German people, he was already planning to set up the Communist run Eastern Bloc in the Soviet occupied areas. Soviet commanders considered the rapes to be their troops blowing off steam and didn't bother about them much.

    Americans and British didn't have to rape... their abundance of cigarettes, chocolate and food enabled them to get the attention of desperate German women in other ways. German Reichsmarks became essentially worthless... cigarettes became the de-facto currency in post-war Germany in the first few years after surrender.

    In the last month Hitler had ordered all infrastructure, all water systems, everything of value in Germany be destroyed, included all food stocks and all industries.... this would have resulted in mass starvation in Germany and a much higher total of deaths. When his underlings questioned the order he said all the best Germans had died and the rest deserved to perish.

    Fortunately others in authority like Speer ignored or delayed those orders and were able to prevent the complete destruction of Germany.

    It is typical of narcissists and sociopaths to have no empathy for others suffering or death.
    Last edited by RAF74_Buzzsaw; May-29-2020 at 18:27.

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    Re: Germany 1945: Sensationally restored film footage by George Stevens

    I look at 13:40 to 14:09 and I know things will work out fine..
    Last edited by IIJG27Rich; May-29-2020 at 18:03.
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    Re: Germany 1945: Sensationally restored film footage by George Stevens

    Watched this a week or so back, it is rather amasing footage, and great to see those few smiling faces, priceless!

    Thanks for the info Buzz, remarkable stuff, to say that Hitler had a few screws loose would be an understatement! He had some form of sound mind but something sure wasn't right.

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    Re: Germany 1945: Sensationally restored film footage by George Stevens

    Hitler was a genius... there is no question. Tremendous energy, tremendous organizational ability, tremendous understanding of the German people's psyche.

    However, everything was about himself... he perceived himself as a messiah... as Germany personified... only he could fix Germany's problems.

    Hard to say how he ended up becoming what he did.... I suspect it was his war experience.

    He was a runner during WWI... which meant he went out in the open under shellfire carrying messages back forth between the front line trenches and the rear commanders, often trapped in shellholes under barrages for hours at an end... many men lost their minds in similar experiences. He did that throughout the war... Not only, he was gassed in his last experience under fire and was blinded for a time, lucky to survive.

    It is quite possible his personality was permanently damaged as a result of his experiences and he developed a psychosis.

    We'll never know... only thing is certain... he precipitated the greatest human created tragedy in history and devastated Europe.



    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_TCP View Post
    Watched this a week or so back, it is rather amasing footage, and great to see those few smiling faces, priceless!

    Thanks for the info Buzz, remarkable stuff, to say that Hitler had a few screws loose would be an understatement! He had some form of sound mind but something sure wasn't right.

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    Re: Germany 1945: Sensationally restored film footage by George Stevens

    When you are able to exploit the poeple malcontent so well as Hitler and Mussolini did during the WW2 era and you are a very carismatic and highly smart person the big troubles could start at any time.

    It's a thing that scares me also nowadays. At least here in Italy a lot of people is very tired about how our politicians and government are managing the Italian country and there is a lot of malcontent snaking among people, especially related to their every day living conditions.
    It's something hidden and well hidden away by persons but there is...and it's very dangerous IMHO.

    During the hard part of the Covid-19 isolation I've seen for the umpteenth time what persons that think of being in close immediate danger could do...The switch between " being a fully normal person " and becoming a " bloodthirsty wolf " could happen very quickly in the human psyche.

    We are lucky that until now only a bunch of clowns showed up but I can't imagine what could happen if a smart and carismatic person like the 2 guys above will show up one day in Italy knowing the well-known habit of the Italians to like to be put " Under Command " by someone...

    A good example...

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    Re: Germany 1945: Sensationally restored film footage by George Stevens

    It is certainly true, that after being conquered Germans in the West did fare much better than people in eastern Europe when conquered by Germans.
    That said, imho, a crime stays a crime and never can be justified with other crimes.

    The allies in the West did their best to sort things out and restore some kind of functioning order, especially as the tensions with their Soviet ally were growing.

    For Heidelberg some pages of the diary of Th., later first president of the Federal Republic of Germany, are available on the net. I will try to translate some parts and post them here.


    I might add some bits and pieces that I remember from what my mother had told me.
    She was born in 1928, so being five years old when Hitler took power, she received the full impact of Nazi-education and propaganda as a child. She told me that for her and her friends was some kind of supernatural being, more than a hero and every evening she prayed for his well-being.
    Her father (a truly unpleasant person, I’m afraid) had become a member of the Nazi party quite early in the 30s, certainly not because of ideological or political motives, but just to further his business prospects. He ran a car repair and petrol station and so he was ‘allowed’ to chauffeur the local mayor and party leaders to Nuremberg for the famous ‘Reichsparteitag’. Something, I was never able to find out what, happened there ad he came back completely dis-illusioned, saying. “This will end in catastrophe!” but he still stayed a member of the party. When the war started, he always shut down the radio as soon as he heard Hitler’s voice, which made his kids (my mother and her one year older brother) furious and they despised their father for his weakness.
    He used his party membership to have his business declared to be ‘rüstungswichtig’ (relevant for war economy) and thus could save his staff from being drafted during the first years. He did not allow his son to join the Hitlerjugend, which caused a mob of uniformed youngsters to turn up every Sunday morning in front of the house shouting: “Where is Walter ...?”
    In 1944 my uncle turned 17 and was eager to become a fighter pilot, shooting down ‘terror bombers’ and die in flames for the sake of the fatherland. To his dismay, my grandfather managed to send him to a Flak-Batallion instead, where his chances to survive were much, much higher.
    Their little hometown is situated on a river which is crossed by a railway-bridge with a footpath. Even in late 44 and early 45 my mother, then 16 years old used to cross this bridge on foot regularly twice a week to go to her music lessons in the village on the other bank, ‘hurrying up a little’ when the sirens started, but otherwise not bothering much.
    Things deteriorated very quickly in late winter 45. My mother experienced how her male school mates were drafted to the ‘Volkssturm’ and how one of them, a kid that was rather simple but doing no harm to anybody, was hanged because he had thrown down his gun weeping, pleading that he wanted to go home to his mummy. People used to stay inside because of ‘Tiefflieger’ attacks on civilians, working on the fields.
    In late march 45 American troops closed in and German soldiers blew up the railway-bridge just one or two days before they arrived on March 28th (1st Batallion 324 US Infantry) and met no resistance. “It did not stop them for half an hour and one week later a provisional bridge was standing again.”
    The Americans hanged the town mayor who was “... perfectly harmless, just trying to keep everybody out of trouble”, while some citizens, who had done very well by stealing formerly Jewish shops suddenly turned out to be fiery democrats and (almost) resistance fighters.
    The family had to move into two rooms of a small house in the backyard because the main buildings were occupied by American officers.
    My mother told me that she was in deep shock to see, that these were just normal, decent people and no raging (black) monsters. Within a few weeks she had to realize that everything that she was taught, that she had believed and trusted in was nothing but a bunch of lies. My grandfather, being what he was, soon made friends with the Americans and somehow tried to get his business going again. During the first days, all the tools had disappeared from his workshop, but he offered to repair a nice Mercedes Benz for the commanding officer and within one night everything was restored again and he could start to work again. With the first cars he got going, he also started a kind of taxi service first for the Americans to get hold of some fuel. My mother, despite being just 17 was a very good driver, and soon she had to do most of the driving. She regularly drove the newly appointed mayors of the neighbouring villages to the meetings in the American headquarters in Heidelberg and the cute, blonde ‘Lady Chauffeur’ became a well-known sight. She never ever experienced anything but gentlemanly behaviour from the soldiers.

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    Re: Germany 1945: Sensationally restored film footage by George Stevens

    Interesting story DerDa, thank you for sharing.
    I can compare it to my own mother's story.
    She was born 9 years after yours, in 1937, so she lived the entire war as a child.
    Her father was the village baker, and they had warmth and bread as long as supplies lasted.
    This ended when my grandfather got drafted for Barbarossa and froze to his death somewhere on the Eastern front, possibly Stalingrad, we never knew.
    Their village was in west Prussia, currently 500 meters from the western Polish border.
    In other words they were savagely invaded by the soviet troops in 1945, and the stories she remembers are not to be shared here, sadly...
    The least we can say is that soviets are not remembered as gentlemen as the western allies may have been...
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    Re: Germany 1945: Sensationally restored film footage by George Stevens

    One of the greatest decisions in the history of mankind was taken by President Harry Truman on the advice of General George Marshall, the Chief of Staff of the US Army... the senior US Military Commander in the war. Marshall was Eisenhowers boss, (Marshall hand picked him) he stayed in the US and managed the entire enormous US war effort... he doesn't get enough credit for what he achieved in the mobilization of the vast resources of the US towards winning the war.

    After the war Marshall analyzed the situation in Europe and recommended against punitive actions against the German people.

    He determined the best way to establish democracy in Germany and also in the rest of Allied controlled Europe... nearly all of which was a mess... was to support and build up these societies.

    He drew up a plan... now known as the 'Marshall Plan'.... which had the US invest heavily in the rebuilding of Germany, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Italy, etc.

    The result was these nations came back strongly... they established democratic societies, they regained their economic strength and prospered.

    The generosity of the Americans was the single most important factor in the creation of a peaceful Europe and led directly to the European Union... it led to the two former antagonists, France and Germany, now becoming the closest of allies.

    All of the prosperity of Europe came directly from this decision.

    Britain never received this type of assistance... because they were one of "The Big Three", they were expected to stand on their own feet. This is one of the reasons why some British still see themselves as different from Europe.

    Unfortunately what we are seeing now... which is the pressure against the EU... Nationalistic movements... and pressure from politicians all over Europe to break up the Union is very shortsighted and will lead to the type of conflicts which were seen commonly in the first half of the Twentieth Century.

    Maybe the EU needs some reform, but giving into nationalism and dissolving the EU would be a huge mistake.
    Last edited by RAF74_Buzzsaw; May-30-2020 at 18:58.

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    Re: Germany 1945: Sensationally restored film footage by George Stevens

    I was born 15 years after WW II ended.
    People of my generation and younger ones in West-, Central-, North-, and South Europe never had to experience a (hot) war.
    Since 75 years!

    This is a direct outcome of the politics of the western Allies after WW II.
    It makes me incredibly angry to see how some people who enjoyed this enormous priviledge for all their life, are now dreaming of going back to 'glorious' old times.

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    Re: Germany 1945: Sensationally restored film footage by George Stevens

    This is an absolutely fascinating thread! Like many of us, I suspect, I have had plenty of opportunity to hear first hand accounts of war experience from the point of view of the victorious Allies but I have read only a handful of accounts from the 'enemy' side. 'I flew for the Fuhrer' by Heinz Knocke comes to mind. I read that at least 30 years ago and I am currently reading, 'Enemy in the Dark: The Story of a Luftwaffe Night-Fighter Pilot' by Peter Spoden.

    I have come across his name many times whilst reading Martin Middlebrook's amazing books on the various air campaigns of Bomber Command. He strikes me as a thoroughly decent man and his story (written for his Grandchildren and not intended for public sale) is candid and seems to ring true. He says that none of his Luftwaffe night fighter colleagues were particularly 'politically minded.' Most lived for the flying. Just a few were fanatical and chased the Knight' Cross, Ist Class. As such, few pilots knew much about 'the jewish question' or what was happening in the Concentration camps. They knew the concentration camps existed but believed enemies of the Reich were put there in 'protective custody.'
    I suppose we could accuse them of 'naivety' but they were just young men doing a their jobs, who were optimistic and trusting. Spoden was captured and placed in a Prisoner of War camp in Summer of 1945 and he writes;

    ...'I came up against the Jewish question for the third time in Summer of 1945 when I was in the prisoner of war camp of St Avoid in France. American officers pinned up on the notice board in the hutted encampment photographs of mountains of corpses at Bergen-Belson and waited for our reaction. Hundreds of us prisoners stood in front of the pictures and did not believe what we were told.

    'It's propaganda,' we said. 'just like with Dr Goebbles. Look at us - do we look any better?'

    In Spring 1945 tens of thousands of us had died in the open fields along the Rhine of debilitation and hunger. Many of us had lost thirty to forty pounds in weight. I always had to stand up slowly: if I didn't I became faint and fell over. The American officers were livid with us for not believing them.'

    I suppose this is another case of: 'the first casuality in war is the truth.'

    But Spoden's story is interesting because it is so refreshing to hear 'the other side'...especially for somebody like me...Dad in the RAF....brought up on RAF Stations (former Luftwaffe bases) in Germany and living and breathing Spitfires, the heroics of Malan, Gibson and Bader....and The Battle of Britain.

    In exactly the same way, I found DerDa's and Noufi's stories extra interesting because I rarely have access to such. Really thought provoking! Thanks for sharing. Salute!

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    Re: Germany 1945: Sensationally restored film footage by George Stevens

    Thank you all for sharing your thoughts and family experiences and memories.
    It's so interesting to hear these personal accounts from the war and
    they remind me of how everyone was affected for so many years,
    during and after the trauma of it all.
    I can't really imagine what it would be like, but I am always
    struck by how resilient people are and how they adapt and survive,
    and DerDa, your piece reminds me of how parents give everything
    to help their children survive.
    I hope more will share family memories here.

    Thanks again.
    "If you want to fly, give up everything that weighs you down"......

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    Re: Germany 1945: Sensationally restored film footage by George Stevens

    The fact of whether the ordinary German soldiers and people knew about Hitler and the Nazis crimes has been discussed many times.

    There are a number of excellent books out there on the subject... there was a travelling exhibition in Germany.

    Here is a link to the Wiki page on the subject:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_o...lean_Wehrmacht

    I would also recommend the recent book: "The German War" by Nicholas Stargardt.

    https://www.amazon.com/German-War-Na.../dp/0465094899

    Another book, "Combat and Genocide on the Eastern Front" by Jeff Rutherford, discusses the environment... below is a link to an interview with Rutherford:

    https://www.c-span.org/video/?323470...-eastern-front

    The conclusion of all these examinations: It was impossible for the number of crimes which were committed by the Nazis to occur without the knowledge and assistance of the general population.

    Ordinary Germans became widely aware of these crimes but turned their heads and looked the other way. And in many instances, they participated, as soldiers in the Wehrmacht or other organizations.

    Sad to say, but when people are forced to make decisions... whether to reject conformity to the structures of a society and authority which is clearly criminal, or to risk their lives opposing those policies, most will take the decision which is the least risky.

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    Re: Germany 1945: Sensationally restored film footage by George Stevens

    This is quite offtopic, but I also wanted to give you a little kick off in questioning not only the past war and our society but also into our meat or leather society.
    I will do some little hinds in how the following compares somewhere inside this big wall of text.

    It's like acknowledging that animals get hurt mostly unnecessary, even though we know about that we are hurting them in massproduction and could turn against this cruel by just stop eating it - that way we would not spend money on it which would already (and does as we can see) change what will be provided. It's all about supply/demand
    Some don't see animals as feeling beings, and simply don't want to give them the right to not being hurt, because they are animals and not humans - even though we see that animals are way smarter than we think and we also see plenty of smart animals on facebook.
    Animals in massproductions are kind of the new "Untermenschen" of the 20th century
    We all know that some animals are being hurt by being brutally skinned alive.
    But it would risk giving up your everyday meat routine and would risk you into thinking how to change your everyday food and kitchen routine forcing you to look up for new kinds of different meal.
    It's not just like we would risk our lives, it's sometimes because we are too lazy to change our mind, or change our everyday routine into doing something different.
    Because meat does taste is the laziest argument in my opinion, because I know it's not because of that, but because of the things I mentioned above, changing your routine and having to look up and learn new stuff.
    Also in WWII humans eat way less meat than we do today, also milk is not as harmless as we think, but that's another story you need to look up if you're an open and free minded.

    Theres like 2 things on vitamins that we (all) need B12, which people are also very low on when they don't drink energy drinks.
    Vit B12 is making you more awake, that's alsow why it's in energy drinks (not saying you should drink energy drinks all day though, maybe get a different supplementary then energy drinks)
    B12 is not just getting magically into the animals body, it get's supplmented into their "Soya" food, because their food is so "clean" from dirt.
    Yes you read right, soya, the thing you thought mostly vegetarian or vegan people eat, they do but not so much, they mostly just leave the meat out of most our meals with meat and put something different to it that.
    Soya hurts our rainwood because so many is planted and rainforest is cleared, but incredible much just for the massproduction. But that's more a political problem.
    And Vitamin D3, which everyone is low on when running in normal clothes most of the day.

    Though I'm not into a war of opinion in how animals do not have the right for cruel free life or painless death.
    We all know we can survive with meatfree meals, and saying we are predators like Lions, you know lions also kill the childrens of others lions, do you still think you're lion?
    We apperantly see it as cruelty to kill somebody others children.
    Also cruelty doesn't make other cruelty right.
    Wrongs doesn't make other wrong right.
    Less pain is less pain, I'm sure humans kill more animals for fun than animals kill other animals for food.
    The amount of pain we do in comparison is way out of our perception.

    I know many people are also in older generations so changin in habits will be very hard
    (as you see people can't just change their habits, just because they disagree with something).
    Anyway I'm not radical or something,
    (something you would have wanted for WWII of the Germans - do you see the connection?)
    because we just can't risk to fight any humans because they will continue eating meat and buying leather of alive skinned animals of 3rd world countries.
    The only thing I can stand up is just by not spending money on this demand/supply chain.
    Also spending just alittle less for everyone is a way bigger step than me and my society.

    I don't want to step on your feelings or anything else, this is for your information, don't feel like I want to say meat eaters are bad people, I just want you to learn on how things are going, sometimes we all are very stubborn in acknowledging things we are lazy in, this is a natural human factor, we all know, humans are cruel - some of them.... well... you can count yourself how many actually are.
    But please share your opinion with me.
    Last edited by Tibsun; May-31-2020 at 15:36.

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    Re: Germany 1945: Sensationally restored film footage by George Stevens

    What makes you think Plants have no feelings too?

    I am pro plants, I dont eat vegetables nor fruits, they have feelings and I dont like biting on them.


    Sarcasmus


    My opinion is that you need balance in life, you cant just live without eating meat, you will be missing vitamins or whatever, nor the opposite.
    Last edited by Maru; May-31-2020 at 15:50.

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    Re: Germany 1945: Sensationally restored film footage by George Stevens

    Quote Originally Posted by Maru View Post
    What makes you think Plants have no feelings too?

    I am pro plants, I dont eat vegetables nor fruits, they have feelings and I dont like biting on them.


    Sarcasmus


    My opinion is that you need balance in life, you cant just live without eating meat, you will be missing vitamins or whatever, nor the opposite.


    I saw this coming and I also got humor

    But to actually answer your question which one is more cruel, well there are more plants dying in the production of meat than if I would eat plants right away.
    So less pain is still less cruelty

    EDIT: Well I answered what you need if you have read my wall of text, the one with B12, please read, oh and have I mentioned you need to learn.
    D3 is not certainly only vegan problem, but everybody staying mostly in clothes or at home and not sunburning yourself everyday from 10 to 5 o'clock
    Also I live since many years
    Last edited by Tibsun; May-31-2020 at 15:58.

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    Re: Germany 1945: Sensationally restored film footage by George Stevens

    It may serve me right for responding, but ...

    I've been out making hay for the past two days (I raise cattle for a living ... such as it is) and listening to "The Deluge" (Tooze) about the WWI and the its post- politics. Very interesting in how economics and personalities shaped the 20's and 30's which (if I'm being optimistic) ultimately led to policies such as the Marshal plan (kinda really revising my opinion the role of particular individuals or broader currents most shape history). I'm kinda thinking that extraordinary personality plays an outsized role. Also finished Pandora's Box about WWI and thought it worthwhile also.

    Too many books sucking up oxygen about 200 year old history (bordering on mythology and hagiography) and not enough about the more relevant recent past.

    Regarding meat, just hang on, in maybe 20 years or so most will be bio-manufactured (and probably for the better, for a bunch of reasons from environmental to economic ...).

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    Re: Germany 1945: Sensationally restored film footage by George Stevens

    Quote Originally Posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw View Post


    The conclusion of all these examinations: It was impossible for the number of crimes which were committed by the Nazis to occur without the knowledge and assistance of the general population.

    Ordinary Germans became widely aware of these crimes but turned their heads and looked the other way. And in many instances, they participated, as soldiers in the Wehrmacht or other organizations.

    Sad to say, but when people are forced to make decisions... whether to reject conformity to the structures of a society and authority which is clearly criminal, or to risk their lives opposing those policies, most will take the decision which is the least risky.
    Indeed

    This comes to mind immediately.
    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3709552/

    The Katyn massacre by the Soviets in 1940 remained officially undisclosed until 1990 when Gorbachev admitted it. The unofficial truth was known by the British and American governments during World War II and by the public since the late 1940s.
    http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=4036&dateline=1382347  940

    If it's brown, shoot it down!

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    Re: Germany 1945: Sensationally restored film footage by George Stevens

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    The least we can say is that soviets are not remembered as gentlemen as the western allies may have been...
    Noofy, I fear that the Soviet troops were paying back in kind and still did not sink to the depths of depravity of the Einsatzgruppen in Russia
    Don't let Grudges fester and poison your future happiness......get your revenge as quickly as possible.

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    Re: Germany 1945: Sensationally restored film footage by George Stevens

    Quote Originally Posted by JackMaXX View Post
    Noofy, I fear that the Soviet troops were paying back in kind and still did not sink to the depths of depravity of the Einsatzgruppen in Russia
    The NKVD troops committed a number of atrocities versus the Polish Intelligencia and Officer Class early in the war, as for example Katyn... on the orders of Beria and Stalin. But those were massacres of so-called Political opposition... But Stalin had no intention of committing genocide against the Polish people as a whole as Hitler had planned against that national group and against the Russians. (all Slavs were subhumans and were to be completely exterminated as a national group and race)

    In 1945, Stalin decided to use less harsh methods... purely for political reasons... not because he was sentimental... (Stalin was a mass murderer) but because he decided he needed wider support in the occupied countries. He allowed a certain amount of dissent until approx. 1948... then he threw the political opposition in jail or in labour camps instead of outright massacring them.

    So there was no organized genocide or massacres on the order of high Soviet authority as there was with the Nazi occupation of Poland and the Soviet Union. If Hitler had won the war, there would have been a much larger Holocaust... with another 200 million people exterminated.

    Stalin didn't eliminate his opposition on the basis of their racial heritage or because they were part of a national group... he murdered or imprisoned on the basis of political opposition to his authority. (or imagined political opposition) He killed nearly as many people as Hitler, but most of those were Russian or Ukrainian.

    Hitler and his crony's labeling of certain national or racial groups as subhuman is of course nonsense... there is no significant genetic difference between Slavs and Germans... or European Jews and Germans.

    It is ironic now that Russian women such as Maria Sharapova or Anna Kournikova are held up as ideals of physical beauty, whereas in the Hitler's Germany Russians were assumed to be a lower form of human life.
    Last edited by RAF74_Buzzsaw; Jun-02-2020 at 17:14.

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    Re: Germany 1945: Sensationally restored film footage by George Stevens

    Quote Originally Posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw View Post
    Sad to say, but when people are forced to make decisions... whether to reject conformity to the structures of a society and authority which is clearly criminal, or to risk their lives opposing those policies, most will take the decision which is the least risky.
    To be fair that is what is to be expected. Society is not just made up of the young, strong & brave. You've got the old, the sick, the women and the children. You can't expect them to rise up against a regime that up to the outbreak of war had actually taken care of them very well. Under Nazi rule the German economy was thriving. The Nazis were also crafting a very powerful social cohesion by fuzing people together as "das deutsche Volk", something the german people were longing for after the collective humiliation that was WW1. By the time people realized where they were heading they had for the most part accepted their fate and were hoping for the best ("Augen zu und durch"). I guess it was a mix of naivité, lack of empathy and the wish of just getting on with one's life that played into it.

    People had endured WW1 and a major economic crisis, many existances had been shattered and people were longing for social security which Hitler was providing with his employment policy. That this was just a huge build-up for another war they were all too willing to dismiss. People were happy to work, any work, better than being unemployed, poor and starving.

    I think it is easy to judge these things in hindsight but you would really have to be there yourself and then ask yourself: Would I act any differently?
    Last edited by JG4_Karaya; Jun-03-2020 at 03:49.

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    Re: Germany 1945: Sensationally restored film footage by George Stevens

    Quote Originally Posted by JG4_Karaya View Post
    To be fair that is what is to be expected. Society is not just made up of the young, strong & brave. You've got the old, the sick, the women and the children. You can't expect them to rise up against a regime that up to the outbreak of war had actually taken care of them very well. Under Nazi rule the German economy was thriving. The Nazis were also crafting a very powerful social cohesion by fuzing people together as "das deutsche Volk", something the german people were longing for after the collective humiliation that was WW1. By the time people realized where they were heading they had for the most part accepted their fate and were hoping for the best ("Augen zu und durch"). I guess it was a mix of naivité, lack of empathy and the wish of just getting on with one's life that played into it.

    People had endured WW1 and a major economic crisis, many existances had been shattered and people were longing for social security which Hitler was providing with his employment policy. That this was just a huge build-up for another war they were all too willing to dismiss. People were happy to work, any work, better than being unemployed, poor and starving.

    I think it is easy to judge these things in hindsight but you would really have to be there yourself and then ask yourself: Would I act any differently?
    I don't think anyone would expect women and children to do the revolting.... it was the people in senior positions who were not part of the Nazi apparatus who might be expected to question Hitler's policies... i.e. the Wehrmacht.

    Yet none of the senior Generals or Field Marshals raised any objection to the Nazi genocide or resigned... and as has been documented, many of them, such as Von Manstein, Reichenau, Halder, etc. all welcomed the policy and participated.

    It wasn't until 1944 that opposition began to form... and that opposition was as much about the fact Hitler was losing the war as it was about his 'dishonorable' policies.

    Even when the 20th July plot went into action, most of the Wehrmacht Officer Corps refused to have anything to do with the plotters... so the Coup failed.

    Re. Hitler providing jobs and employment for the German People... yes, he did that... basically he printed up a bunch of money and borrowed the rest and spent it all on a building program for armaments and Autobahn... which provided lots of jobs and got the German economy going.

    However some historians believe that if Hitler had not declared war in 1939, Germany's economy would have collapsed due to the debt in two years as the armaments were of no use in building a permanent economy.

    With the quick German victories, the Nazis were able to loot the captured countries and keep the boom going for the first two and a half years of the war, and after that, they were able to sustain it with all the slave labourers working for free. The German people didn't suffer any where near the economic hardship that the British did... there was very little rationing up till 1942 and luxury goods were readily available. This policy was deliberate... Hitler didn't want the home front to revolt as it did in 1918.

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    Re: Germany 1945: Sensationally restored film footage by George Stevens

    Quote Originally Posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw View Post
    I don't think anyone would expect women and children to do the revolting.... it was the people in senior positions who were not part of the Nazi apparatus who might be expected to question Hitler's policies... i.e. the Wehrmacht.

    Yet none of the senior Generals or Field Marshals raised any objection to the Nazi genocide or resigned... and as has been documented, many of them, such as Von Manstein, Reichenau, Halder, etc. all welcomed the policy and participated.
    Positions of power will always attract the opportunists, the career soldiers, the backstabbers and the zealous fanatics. Just look at the modern corporate sector, you'll find the same combination of traits and characters there. Only difference is they're not called Feldmarschalls anymore but Chief Executive Officers.

    Many will throw their conscience and empathy overboard without a single thought wasted for an improvement of their position and power.

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    Re: Germany 1945: Sensationally restored film footage by George Stevens

    Quote Originally Posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw View Post
    However some historians believe that if Hitler had not declared war in 1939, Germany's economy would have collapsed due to the debt in two years as the armaments were of no use in building a permanent economy.
    To my knowledge, there are documents from the mid-30s that Hitler was was well aware of this fact and that already by then a war was seen as inevitable, intended and welcome to 'find someone who will have to pay for it all'.

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    Re: Germany 1945: Sensationally restored film footage by George Stevens

    Quote Originally Posted by DerDa View Post
    To my knowledge, there are documents from the mid-30s that Hitler was was well aware of this fact and that already by then a war was seen as inevitable, intended and welcome to 'find someone who will have to pay for it all'.
    This is a long -but interesting - read if into this sort of stuff - https://tnsr.org/2020/04/desperate-m...arring-powers/

    These shortages of both food and raw materials meant that Germany could not sustain a long war. In November 1939, the German army’s economic staff estimated that with careful management of domestic stocks and a secure flow of imports Germany could hold out for two years — twice what it had previously estimated.133 Just a month later, however, Hitler gave orders to make up for shortages that were affecting production by using the stockpiles, resulting in reports that his decisions would limit Germany’s resources for a long war.134 These reports demonstrated a paradox in the effects of economic isolation: The more Germany mobilized its industrial base to increase war production, the more quickly it burned through its stockpiled resources and the greater the shortages Germany would face down the road. Investigating the economic facets of Blitzkrieg, historian Alan Milward concluded, “There can be little doubt that the Allied policy of blockade was fully justified. In fact, the Blitzkrieg drove stocks of vital raw materials down to dangerously low levels.”135 By late 1940, looming shortages of food and raw materials constrained German options and forced Germany to seek quick solutions.
    Given this situation, what options did Hitler have in late 1940 and early 1941 to pursue the war against Britain or otherwise improve Germany’s position? At least four existed.

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    Re: Germany 1945: Sensationally restored film footage by George Stevens

    An old cliche, but the victors write the history, there were war crimes committed by both sides in WW2, none that compare even remotely to the Holocaust

    however the Nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, fire bombing of Dresden, Japanese massacres in China, unrestricted submarine warfare (US and Germany), Katyn massacre, to name a few are considered war crimes by many. Only the vanquished stood trial. It is the same to this day.
    Don't let Grudges fester and poison your future happiness......get your revenge as quickly as possible.

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    Re: Germany 1945: Sensationally restored film footage by George Stevens

    Or there were sides who chose to do nothing at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackMaXX View Post
    An old cliche, but the victors write the history, there were war crimes committed by both sides in WW2, none that compare even remotely to the Holocaust

    however the Nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, fire bombing of Dresden, Japanese massacres in China, unrestricted submarine warfare (US and Germany), Katyn massacre, to name a few are considered war crimes by many. Only the vanquished stood trial. It is the same to this day.

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    Re: Germany 1945: Sensationally restored film footage by George Stevens

    Quote Originally Posted by JackMaXX View Post
    but the victors write the history, there were war crimes committed by both sides in WW2, none that compare even remotely to the Holocaust.
    While generally agreeing to what you write, the cliché about the winners writing the history is just that. And being a (pre-)historian myself I really don't like it.

    There are dozens of German historians researching and writing about WW II.
    There are brilliant US historians (from a multitude of ethnic backgrounds) writing about the European colonisation of North America.
    Just now, I am editing a book containing papers of Mexican historians writing about the Spanish colonisation from an Indigenous point of view.
    I could go on with this list for a very long time.

    The prosecution of war-crimes is quite a different thing, that should not be mixed up 'writing history'.
    Last edited by DerDa; Jun-03-2020 at 11:15.

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    Re: Germany 1945: Sensationally restored film footage by George Stevens

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Slipstream View Post
    Or there were sides who chose to do nothing at all.
    The list of countries the voluntarily took part in WW2 is a short one.
    Don't let Grudges fester and poison your future happiness......get your revenge as quickly as possible.

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    Re: Germany 1945: Sensationally restored film footage by George Stevens

    Quote Originally Posted by JackMaXX View Post
    An old cliche, but the victors write the history, there were war crimes committed by both sides in WW2, none that compare even remotely to the Holocaust

    however the Nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, fire bombing of Dresden, Japanese massacres in China, unrestricted submarine warfare (US and Germany), Katyn massacre, to name a few are considered war crimes by many. Only the vanquished stood trial. It is the same to this day.
    There is a revisionist tendency to suggest that all sides were equally criminal in their conduct during WW2. That would be completely false.

    All you need to do is look at the civilian casualties per country... and you will see the Axis side committed the greatest crimes.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

    The Holocaust was actually only a part of the huge human toll harvested by Germany and Japan. Civilian deaths in China alone outnumbered the total of the Holocaust... that is one reason the Chinese still dislike the Japanese so much... and why they are still angry Japan has not issued a formal apology for its behaviour in WW2.

    A look at the Japanese state sponsored Medical experimentation program reveals a depth of evil which is astonishing:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

    Unlike Japan, Germany and its leaders post war should be given credit for facing up to the actions of Hitler's regime and acknowledging the crimes which it committed. Germany is now one of the most progressive nations in the world.

    We should also not forget who started the war... the suggestion that Hitler was forced into it is grossly inaccurate. He decided to invade and seize the countries around him. The same applies to Japan and its leaders.

    Hitler was getting plenty of oil and raw materials from countries like the Soviet Union and Sweden during the pre-war period and prior to the invasion of Czechoslovakia and Poland. Japan was also getting what it needed prior to the invasion of Manchuria and China.

    The suggestion Hitler was also only trying to reclaim former German territory is also specious... he fully intended to seize all the non-German territories of his neighbours too... right up to the Volga river. Belgium and the Netherlands, Denmark and Norway were all to become part of a Greater German Reich in plans created in the early 1930's.

    Were all sides guilty of committing crimes... Yes.

    Unfortunately that is the nature of war... everyone ends up with some blood on their hands. When humans get angry, they do bad things.

    But lets look at one example of an Allied crime... the dropping of Nuclear weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

    The Allies were planning an invasion of Japan... because they refused to surrender. The Japanese leaders were intent on fighting the death. They armed their civilian population with spears and trained them to conduct suicidal attacks on Allied troops. The estimates were for approx. 750,000 - 1.7 million Allied casualties... add to that the Japanese intended and stated they would execute the 100,000 Allied prisoners of war who were in Japan immediately after the invasion occurred.

    Estimated Japanese casualties, based on the losses at Okinawa, were expected to be 10 times the Allied figures.... with civilians being at least 1/2 that total.

    Comparing those figures with casualties suffered when the US dropped the Atomic bombs, and it can be concluded the loss of life from an invasion as compared to the losses from the bombs would have been much more. Dropping the bombs could be argued to have saved both Allied and Japanese lives.

    And then of course, the behaviour of the Allies to the Japanese after they surrendered is a huge contrast to the Japanese behaviour towards countries like the Philippines or other East Asian nations after their surrender in 1941/42. The US conducted war crimes trials.... but very few... and many historians point to Hirohito getting off completely free of guilt when in fact his responsibility was documented. The Japanese as a nation were treated with kid gloves.

    Certainly the Allies were not squeaky clean.

    But to suggest they were equivalent in criminal behaviour to the Axis is clearly false. The Soviets, as mentioned, were not on their best behaviour... but there were no systematic state sponsored genocides carried out by them against Germans.
    Last edited by RAF74_Buzzsaw; Jun-04-2020 at 23:55.

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