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Thread: You've got to admit this is gorgeous

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    ATAG Member ATAG_SKUD's Avatar
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    You've got to admit this is gorgeous

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    ATAG Member ATAG_Catseye's Avatar
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    Re: You've got to admit this is gorgeous

    Yes indeedy, it really is.
    "A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had,
    but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP"
    - Leonard Nimoy


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    Manual Creation Group Erpr.Gr.210_Belial's Avatar
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    Re: You've got to admit this is gorgeous

    Indeed!
    Last edited by Erpr.Gr.210_Belial; Jun-20-2020 at 22:47.
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    ATAG Member ATAG_SKUD's Avatar
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    Re: You've got to admit this is gorgeous

    Look at the rivets in the bug's eye picking up shadows. They must have put some serious time in this model.


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    Re: You've got to admit this is gorgeous

    Just my personal opinion, but I disagree.

    To me this looks as what is called 'over-modelling' in scale-modelling.
    Each and every detail is eactly modelled and so prominently visible that the overall impression is no longer realistic.
    You get this often with aircraft scale models, on which pre-shading and riveting is over done. Everybody applaudes to the huge amount of work and care that went into it, but the end result is not really satisfying.

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    ATAG Member ATAG_SKUD's Avatar
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    Re: You've got to admit this is gorgeous

    Sure looks like the real one!

    ju88nose-600x359.jpga4 torp.PNG
    Last edited by ATAG_SKUD; Jun-22-2020 at 07:40.
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    Re: You've got to admit this is gorgeous

    Well, I agree with Scud. That pic is just photo-realistic gorgeous to me.
    It's just great to see modellers pushing the limits whether it is DCS, CloD, BoX, MS Flight Simulator or whoever.
    When I started in flight sims in 2000 to what we have now and will have soon are worlds apart.
    And then there is VR. I keep meeting players using VR who just couldn't go back to a flat screen now even tho the technology isn't perfect yet.
    I just applaud the efforts of those pushing the limits in what is a very small niche market in comparison to the big money titles who number their player base in the millions.
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    Re: You've got to admit this is gorgeous

    Quote Originally Posted by DerDa View Post
    Just my personal opinion, but I disagree.

    To me this looks as what is called 'over-modelling' in scale-modelling.
    Each and every detail is eactly modelled and so prominently visible that the overall impression is no longer realistic.
    You get this often with aircraft scale models, on which pre-shading and riveting is over done. Everybody applaudes to the huge amount of work and care that went into it, but the end result is not really satisfying.
    I agree. I think everyone else is confusing “accuracy” with “realistic”. The colors are definitely not realistic.

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    Supporting Member BOO's Avatar
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    Re: You've got to admit this is gorgeous

    Quote Originally Posted by TWC_SLAG View Post
    I agree. I think everyone else is confusing “accuracy” with “realistic”. The colors are definitely not realistic.

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    ATAG Member ATAG_SKUD's Avatar
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    Re: You've got to admit this is gorgeous

    Colors aside-I think it has both accuracy and realism. The rivets are dead on. Why would you not model a detail in the size and shape that it originally appeared?

    skud
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    Supporting Member BOO's Avatar
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    Re: You've got to admit this is gorgeous

    The details dont appear overdone to me at all. The chips yes but the details no. The colours are way too light light with little differentiation for sure but the whole of DCS is a little screwed up colour/light wise as present so that may settle down. Ive had a good ole look at it in game and its pretty good overall to me.

    I have a love hate relationship with overdetailing. The Aircraft in Bos clod and dcs are far prettier (LAs excepted - nothing can make them look pretty and the clod spitfire panel lines look Die Cast) than they look in the flesh due to all the neatly defined panel lines but i like the overall look - kind of like that perfect garage look of the cars in racing games. Take that way and you run the risk of being slagged off for poor detail and have a pretty bland looking model (as we did in the plastic kit world). And none of them really overdo (spitfire aside) it to the point of making the thing look like theres a 300 year patina on them (that every rivet must spring out look) or they should be carrying a CORGI manufacturers plate. There is point where nice becomes not so nice but i dont think any overstep it too much if at all.

    BOS has or at least had (some of the newer models seem to have a less strighforward user editable normal map) a good advantage for skinners wanting more accuracy in that you can mess with the normal map to reduce your reliance on drawn and shaded panel lines. DCS too but its more involved than most would care to mess with (especially over the multiple templates most dcs aircraft require (6 or 7 for Tomcat). The 109 Fs that were originally produced by BlackHellHound and that are now official are good examples of this method.

    As for colours ive long since stopped caring to GAF for the most part. The colour imaging of the day was off, the paint production process was varied, UV, dust, dirt, sand, best quess museum repaints of single surviving examples, scaling, definative references that later prove to be less than definative, the internet, rubbish colour plate drawings, game engine lighting, monitor set up..

    ..but that 88 is very light if thats RLM70/71 to my eye. Its why i asked what Slag thought was wrong as i no longer trust my monitor (or my eyes).

    But if it bothers me i just fly up to the sparking tropical clear blue waters of the Thames on the DCS Channel Map to regain some perspective
    Last edited by BOO; Jun-27-2020 at 06:47.
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    Manual Creation Group Erpr.Gr.210_Belial's Avatar
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    Re: You've got to admit this is gorgeous

    I think that what DerDa was simply trying to say was this ( in brief ):

    The 3D model is superb but the general appearence of the image available here seem to give more the impression that you are looking at a painting made by a Flemish painter than to what you would imagine to see by looking at the real aircraft. From here, I presume, comes his statement about the general non-realistic appearence of the model/image available here.
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    Re: You've got to admit this is gorgeous

    Quote Originally Posted by Erpr.Gr.210_Belial View Post
    I think that what DerDa was simply trying to say was this ( in brief ):

    The 3D model is superb but the general appearence of the image available here seem to give more the impression that you are looking at a painting made by a Flemish painter than to what you would imagine to see by looking at the real aircraft. From here, I presume, comes his statement about the general non-realistic appearence of the model/image available here.
    Ah....you mean in the same way DCS makes their promo videos look like your flying in a sim where stuff actually works and is more exiting than it is frustrating.

    A kind of impressionist verson of the reality

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    Re: You've got to admit this is gorgeous

    Quote Originally Posted by BOO View Post
    Ah....you mean in the same way DCS makes their promo videos look like your flying in a sim where stuff actually works and is more exiting than it is frustrating.

    A kind of impressionist verson of the reality

    Gotcha!
    I can't judge because I do not own DCS but, yes, I presume you're pretty much on the spot.

    There are a lot of games around that, when you see a YouTube video about them, they let you think " WOW!!! ", then when you buy the game and you start playing it, the " WOW!!! " becomes a " MIEOW!!! " quickly
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    ATAG Member ATAG_SKUD's Avatar
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    Re: You've got to admit this is gorgeous

    I see what you mean by colors and overall effect looking like a painting. I have a couple of Robert Taylor prints that have that look.
    What I like about it was the detail in the structure itself. In the Beetle's eye and cockpit, the annular radiator. The flanges on the airframe where it meets the beetle's eye, the different thickness in the glass, the framing of the glass, that gives the structure a 3D look. Also, the hydraulic tubing inside the cockpit, and yes the accurate and not overdone rivets.
    If you look at BOS 88 the airframe is 2d with no thickness. It's just a shell. All the details are perceptions of depth approximated by painting the skin.

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    Re: You've got to admit this is gorgeous

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_SKUD View Post
    I see what you mean by colors and overall effect looking like a painting. I have a couple of Robert Taylor prints that have that look.
    What I like about it was the detail in the structure itself. In the Beetle's eye and cockpit, the annular radiator. The flanges on the airframe where it meets the beetle's eye, the different thickness in the glass, the framing of the glass, that gives the structure a 3D look. Also, the hydraulic tubing inside the cockpit, and yes the accurate and not overdone rivets.
    If you look at BOS 88 the airframe is 2d with no thickness. It's just a shell. All the details are perceptions of depth approximated by painting the skin.

    skud
    The DCS stills are mostly rendered like that. In game it looks a lot less Robert Taylor (whos painting i admire). Scheme wise you can be forgiven for initally thinking there is just a single upper colour used its so washed out. Im sure users will soon fix that. There are no other schemes available at the moment. Nor does there appear to be any payload other than torps which is a bit limiting so im assuming you didnt just sling fish onto a JU88 and there must be other unique features to torp bombers that make different payloads inaccurate.

    We can dream about a full flyable version if the mosquito does well but more than likely DCS will decide that a Sopwith Camel or even a real camel is the most suitable module for the 1943-1993 time period the channel map seems to represent.
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    ATAG Member ATAG_SKUD's Avatar
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    Re: You've got to admit this is gorgeous

    Quote Originally Posted by BOO View Post
    We can dream about a full flyable version if the mosquito does well but more than likely DCS will decide that a Sopwith Camel or even a real camel is the most suitable module for the 1943-1993 time period the channel map seems to represent.


    Too bad it's true
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    Supporting Member BOO's Avatar
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    Re: You've got to admit this is gorgeous

    I also suspect that any Camel will be stuck in Dromedary EA for 2 years giving a lot of pre realease buyers the hump (or not)


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    Re: You've got to admit this is gorgeous

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_SKUD View Post
    Colors aside-I think it has both accuracy and realism. The rivets are dead on. Why would you not model a detail in the size and shape that it originally appeared?

    skud
    Capture.jpg
    I don’t think anyone questioned the accuracy of the rivets, etc. Just that the COLORS are not realistic, which you seem to agree with. “Colors aside”.
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  27. #20
    Manual Creation Group Erpr.Gr.210_Belial's Avatar
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    Re: You've got to admit this is gorgeous

    Guys let's look at bright side at least is not painted in pink colour...
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  28. #21
    Novice Pilot TWC_Birdtail's Avatar
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    Re: You've got to admit this is gorgeous

    This has turned into a rather long thread.....To me the pic was taken during the "Golden Hour" granted the shadow side could be a little darker with a hint of blue. Over all the colour temp looks fine to my eye. We all see colour slightly different then throw in individual video settings and who know what can happen. It looks perfectly acceptable to shot down before she drops those torpedo's....if the boys bail out they can spend the rest of the war working on a farm in England or Canada with 3 squares a day.........it's all good
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  29. #22
    ATAG Member ATAG_SKUD's Avatar
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    Re: You've got to admit this is gorgeous

    Quote Originally Posted by TWC_SLAG View Post
    I don’t think anyone questioned the accuracy of the rivets, etc. Just that the COLORS are not realistic, which you seem to agree with. “Colors aside”.
    True
    My main point was the detail in the physical model. Not the skin or lighting.

    skud
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  30. #23
    Ace No.401_Wolverine's Avatar
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    Re: You've got to admit this is gorgeous

    Quote Originally Posted by BOO View Post
    Ah....you mean in the same way DCS makes their promo videos look like your flying in a sim where stuff actually works and is more exiting than it is frustrating.
    I think this is a little harsh.

    You could make the same statement about any video game in existence practically, so singling out DCS for such a statement seems a bit targeted. If that truly is your experience with DCS, that's a shame. We've had a blast with it and continue to do so. We've (about ten of us) been flying DCS as our Saturday night game to replace Cliffs for several years now and in general we've had a lot more success and enjoyment than failure and frustration.

    -

    To the OP's point, yes the 88 model in DCS is quite detailed and looks great. Unfortunately, I've never had the opportunity to get very close and slow with one to admire it since their gunners have it out for me with a vengeance....

  31. #24
    Admin ATAG_Snapper's Avatar
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    Re: You've got to admit this is gorgeous

    I’ve downloaded and installed the Channel map and it’s been a ton of fun to fly the familiar shoreline from Manston to Dungeness. Comparisons with Clod are inevitable, but that’s what I really enjoy. Different in some ways, yet still brings a smile to my face. It’s kind of like visiting the old childhood neighbourhood after a lengthy absence. Familiar but different.

    What I absolutely need to do is upgrade my aging equipment. Even at 1920 x 1080 the framerate is not as smooth as I’d like. 2K or 4K is totally out of the question. Clod runs very smooth for me at 1080p at max detail (“Very High”), but 2K and certainly 4K is really a nogo for smooth gameplay.

    I just put this out there to say that I love having the choice - DCS Channel & Normandy, BoX Bodenplatte, and Clod (with Tobruk around the corner). Each sim has its unique strong points, each has its areas that can use more development. I’m loathe to disparage any, even slightly. It takes so much work to create these sims for, let’s face it, the very tough, knowledgeable, and discriminating crowd that we are.

    This corner is dedicated to DCS. If anything, it needs to be expanded a bit. Let’s celebrate DCS’ huge accomplishments towards building the WW2 air combat sim genre in the spirit intended by the OP!



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  32. #25
    Supporting Member BOO's Avatar
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    Re: You've got to admit this is gorgeous

    Quote Originally Posted by No.401_Wolverine View Post
    I think this is a little harsh.
    Im happy to stand by it. I feel that ive backed enough broken promises to be entitled to it. We all get different things out of games and have different expectations and experiences. Im glad you enjoy it.
    Last edited by BOO; Jul-08-2020 at 17:11.
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  33. #26
    ATAG Member ATAG_Highseas's Avatar
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    Re: You've got to admit this is gorgeous

    Quote Originally Posted by BOO View Post
    Im happy to stand by it. I feel that ive backed enough broken promises to be entitled to it. We all get different things out of games and have different expectations and experiences. Im glad you enjoy it.
    Grumpy old Boo Boo

    Just kidding Boo.... (as i'm sure you know)




    I have mixed feelings toward DCS. Same as with all sims actually... even my first love Cliffs

    It's brilliant that in DCS I can fly helicopters.

    Not really drawn by any of the plane stuff mind... got the spit... got the channel map and have far better options for both.



    Like Snapper I also enjoyed my trip along the Kent coast... in VR no less (eek!! HOT topic!!) ... but... I can honestly say I'd still rather fly that route in Cliffs with Track IR. And frankly anyone who says 2d after VR is "immersion breaking" and so on has no sence of imagination.

    In theatre circles it is called suspence of disbelief.

    or in normal speak.... having the level of joy you had when you were still 7.... (and also enjoying it rather than supressing it).



    I have a Valve Index. It's great.

    Cliffs?..

    Awesome without


    When / if VR drops I will let you know how it compares... but I'm am super happy with Track IR for this...



    Helicopter wise?!... DCS is absolutely the gold standard right now.


    and the "BoX" Flying Cirus is simply awesome (and I only play that in VR).. its slow paced... so situational awareness is much easier.


    Play them all...

    They are all good at some stuff... just gotta figure out which of your "some stuff" you are interested in... and celebrate those



    anyhooooo



    oh.. also.. (stay on topic 'Seas) the thread title...

    Yes..!

    It looks lovely. (The plane) Splendid...
    Last edited by ATAG_Highseas; Jul-08-2020 at 18:04.


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  35. #27
    Supporting Member BOO's Avatar
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    Re: You've got to admit this is gorgeous

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Highseas View Post

    Play them all...
    I do - it may explain my grumpiness.
    My Rig: Samsung 40" TV, Asus Z170 Pro Gaming Mobo, I5 6600K @ 4.4Ghz on a Coolermaster 212 Evo, MSI GTX1080 Gaming X, 16B Vengeance DDR4 RAM @3000Mhz, Couple of meh SSDs, Corsair 550W CX PSU, MFG Crosswinds, TM WH Throttle, Virpil Mongoose T50CM w/100mm extension, TIR5, EDtracker pro.


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  37. #28
    ATAG Member ATAG_Highseas's Avatar
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    Re: You've got to admit this is gorgeous

    Quote Originally Posted by BOO View Post
    I do - it may explain my grumpiness.


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