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Thread: controllers for trim

  1. #1
    Supporting Member JackMaXX's Avatar
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    controllers for trim

    I'm currently using various hat switches on my Joystick for controlling rudder and elevator trim, i find it takes a lot of single imputs to adjust trim and was thinking of getting a controller using axes, like the saitek quanrant controller, to use on trim, prop control and rads. any thoughts, are any of you using a similar setup, your opinions would be welcome
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    Supporting Member dazza's Avatar
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    Re: controllers for trim

    I also use the hat switch. The x52 throttle hat up/down for elevator and left/right rudder trim. I like that it's readily at hand (finger actually) and it don't need a much input. Somewhere around 10-12 taps nose down for Hurri / Spit level flight. The most required is the Beaufighter. Generally I don't count taps, I hold it and eyeball the various elevator trim gauges in the aircraft, and adjust rudder as required watching the slip needle. I used to have bindings for 'neutral' settings but as I can see the gauges it was moot. I think I'd find something like the Saitek quadrant a bit cumbersome, but then again maybe more immersive if flying a multi engine heavy aircraft.

    Daz
    Last edited by dazza; Jun-24-2020 at 19:06.

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    Re: controllers for trim

    Jack, I use three Saitek throttle quadrants (two on my left side and one on the right), and for me they add a lot to the immersion.

    I fly single engine in the sims, and also the P-38 in the Great battles series, and use them for throttle, prop pitch, fuel mixture, flaps (works perfectly for the P-38 flaps), landing gear, cowlings, etc.
    Also have two Saitek trim wheels which, for me, add to the immersion.

    Having said that, I really enjoy seeing what others are making at home and they inspire me to try to do some home made builds, likely after I retire (hopefully in the next year or two).

    I started out using a CH throttle, but prefer the Saitek for the options it gives due to the number of sliders it has.

    The other options I have seen have been very expensive, whereas buying these over time did not feel like a large outlay of money.
    Last edited by farley; Jun-25-2020 at 08:58.
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    Re: controllers for trim

    I have two Saitek quads and two CH quads. But for trim I also have the Saitek Side Panel which has a small joystick. It moves up and down, side to side and twists for rudder trim. I also like having all those other switches.


    https://www.saitek.com/uk/prod-bak/farmside.html

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    Re: controllers for trim

    GVL224 have the best solution - made by order, features customization* (at some degree), queue ~3 mounts.



    * For example, you can order the above trim console without the Landing Gear lever if want.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAt1QUapY1Y

    Or have the trims whells in individual modules, see in this "IL-2" controls:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E33d7sloiM8

    Other products: https://www.youtube.com/user/GVL224/videos

    Sales topics in SimHQ, IL2sturmovik, DCS forums.
    Last edited by 1lokos; Jun-25-2020 at 10:47.

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    Re: controllers for trim

    In addition to my Thrustmaster Warthog, I use an old, Saitek X-52 system for trim and landing gear control. It allows you to add buttons and switches lower left and lower right of my seat so I must move my hands in a realistic manner: Elevator trim with the left hand, gear control with the right. Possibilities are endless and the price is right.
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    Re: controllers for trim

    Quote Originally Posted by JackMaXX View Post
    I'm currently using various hat switches on my Joystick for controlling rudder and elevator trim, i find it takes a lot of single imputs to adjust trim and was thinking of getting a controller using axes, like the saitek quanrant controller, to use on trim, prop control and rads. any thoughts, are any of you using a similar setup, your opinions would be welcome
    I made one using 5 turn potentiometers with wheels attached. Used an arduino leonardo board.

    Teensy micro is cheaper tbough and basically does the same thing.
    Check out the diy peripherals thread.

    Its nothing like as hard as it seems.

    Basically i have actual trim wheels and it cost me about £10



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    Re: controllers for trim

    Thanks for all the tips, I think i will go with the saitec quadrants contols for the moment, reasonable cost and more important for me they are plug and play, unfortunately my electronic skills are on a par with my piloting skills . some of the controllers shown in 1lokos's post look really interesting, perhaps for some time in the future
    Don't let Grudges fester and poison your future happiness......get your revenge as quickly as possible.

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    Re: controllers for trim

    Quote Originally Posted by JackMaXX View Post
    Thanks for all the tips, I think i will go with the saitec quadrants contols for the moment, reasonable cost and more important for me they are plug and play, unfortunately my electronic skills are on a par with my piloting skills . some of the controllers shown in 1lokos's post look really interesting, perhaps for some time in the future
    1Lokos told me how to set up the arduino board.

    You can make your own stuff for pennies. Taylor made. Cheap. And better!

    Trust yourself. And ask away!


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    - Virpil T50 Mongoos with Warthog Grip plus Extension Set -
    - TM Warthog Throttle -
    - Slaw Device 109 Cam Rudder Pedals -
    - HighseasPeripherals(tm) - Engine Switch Panel - Munitions Switch Panel - Throttle Quadrant Trim Box - Helicopter Collective - Analogue Brake Lever -

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    Re: controllers for trim

    Quote Originally Posted by 1lokos View Post
    GVL224 have the best solution - made by order, features customization* (at some degree), queue ~3 mounts.



    * For example, you can order the above trim console without the Landing Gear lever if want.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAt1QUapY1Y

    Or have the trims whells in individual modules, see in this "IL-2" controls:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E33d7sloiM8

    Other products: https://www.youtube.com/user/GVL224/videos

    Sales topics in SimHQ, IL2sturmovik, DCS forums.
    Classy!


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    - Virpil T50 Mongoos with Warthog Grip plus Extension Set -
    - TM Warthog Throttle -
    - Slaw Device 109 Cam Rudder Pedals -
    - HighseasPeripherals(tm) - Engine Switch Panel - Munitions Switch Panel - Throttle Quadrant Trim Box - Helicopter Collective - Analogue Brake Lever -

    (Operated by a 1972 Standard Issue Talking Monkey)

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    Supporting Member JackMaXX's Avatar
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    Re: controllers for trim

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Highseas View Post
    1Lokos told me how to set up the arduino board.

    You can make your own stuff for pennies. Taylor made. Cheap. And better!

    Trust yourself. And ask away!
    read both your threads on DIY peripherals. The bicycle brake lever adaptation on joystick was interesting and finished product was impressive, I think however I would have created a broken brake lever and a broken joystick and burned myself with a soldering iron in the process. I bottled it and took the easy option and ordered the saitec quadrant on amazon, I'll let you know how i get on.
    Don't let Grudges fester and poison your future happiness......get your revenge as quickly as possible.

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    Re: controllers for trim

    An DIY trim wheel (for elevator) with 3D print parts, using AMS AS5600 sensor, that can have the "electric working angle" programmed, but instead can use a conventional 270º potentiomter, or a 3/5 turn model.

    https://robdobson.com/2017/04/flight-trim/

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    Re: controllers for trim

    Quote Originally Posted by 1lokos View Post
    An DIY trim wheel (for elevator) with 3D print parts, using AMS AS5600 sensor, that can have the "electric working angle" programmed, but instead can use a conventional 270º potentiomter, or a 3/5 turn model.

    https://robdobson.com/2017/04/flight-trim/
    Nice! interesting bit about the rotary sensor.


    I wanted to make my trim wheels with hall sensors. but finding a multi turn hall for anything like a reasonable cost was... well... I haven't found one.


    My cheapo 5 turn pots are made in China. They cost pennies... and work extreamly well.

    They do spike.. no denying it... (and that can be a pain when you want to bind a control and they are still dancing the light fandango all on their own... SELECT ME ME ME !) But the spike level is low and has no noticable effect in game.

    I think I paid £5 for four of them delivered (one spare just in case !)


    bottom line... for this application they are absolutely perfect...


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    - Virpil T50 Mongoos with Warthog Grip plus Extension Set -
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    - Slaw Device 109 Cam Rudder Pedals -
    - HighseasPeripherals(tm) - Engine Switch Panel - Munitions Switch Panel - Throttle Quadrant Trim Box - Helicopter Collective - Analogue Brake Lever -

    (Operated by a 1972 Standard Issue Talking Monkey)

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    Re: controllers for trim

    Quote Originally Posted by JackMaXX View Post
    read both your threads on DIY peripherals. The bicycle brake lever adaptation on joystick was interesting and finished product was impressive, I think however I would have created a broken brake lever and a broken joystick and burned myself with a soldering iron in the process. I bottled it and took the easy option and ordered the saitec quadrant on amazon, I'll let you know how i get on.
    Both? i must have written 5 at least !

    most likely put them in the wrong corner of the forum !

    Nails, Marco, 1Lokos, Zeb, Kendy (in no particular order) are the real heros.

    and most likely others I forgot mention


    some of these guys have done incredible things !


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    - Virpil T50 Mongoos with Warthog Grip plus Extension Set -
    - TM Warthog Throttle -
    - Slaw Device 109 Cam Rudder Pedals -
    - HighseasPeripherals(tm) - Engine Switch Panel - Munitions Switch Panel - Throttle Quadrant Trim Box - Helicopter Collective - Analogue Brake Lever -

    (Operated by a 1972 Standard Issue Talking Monkey)

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    Re: controllers for trim

    My DIY controllers: Based on a lunch box (really, one click and it opens, and one can eaisly reach the Bodnar board and all wires - I need to do that frequently, buttons wear out, wires brake loose... oh well)

    The stick is a Microsoft FFB2, with the handle of a Guillemot Forcefeedback stick on it, it's twist potentiometer moved next to the (original) throttle lever.

    Basically, it all works! lol.

    2012-08-15 17.54.55.jpg


    Got home built pedals as well, haven't got a good picture of them though... and they really do not look like anything anyways ... oh, that's how come I can't get a good picture of 'm.
    Happy Member of the DangerDogz ...

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    Re: controllers for trim

    Quote Originally Posted by DD_FT View Post
    My DIY controllers: Based on a lunch box (really, one click and it opens, and one can eaisly reach the Bodnar board and all wires - I need to do that frequently, buttons wear out, wires brake loose... oh well)

    The stick is a Microsoft FFB2, with the handle of a Guillemot Forcefeedback stick on it, it's twist potentiometer moved next to the (original) throttle lever.

    Basically, it all works! lol.

    2012-08-15 17.54.55.jpg


    Got home built pedals as well, haven't got a good picture of them though... and they really do not look like anything anyways ... oh, that's how come I can't get a good picture of 'm.
    Love it!


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    - Virpil T50 Mongoos with Warthog Grip plus Extension Set -
    - TM Warthog Throttle -
    - Slaw Device 109 Cam Rudder Pedals -
    - HighseasPeripherals(tm) - Engine Switch Panel - Munitions Switch Panel - Throttle Quadrant Trim Box - Helicopter Collective - Analogue Brake Lever -

    (Operated by a 1972 Standard Issue Talking Monkey)

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  28. #17
    Supporting Member JackMaXX's Avatar
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    Re: controllers for trim

    [QUOTE=ATAG_Highseas;356029]I made one using 5 turn potentiometers with wheels attached. Used an arduino leonardo board.

    [/QUOT
    would 1turn 10k pots work, i cant seem to find 5 turn pots on amazon, single or ten turn is all i see
    Don't let Grudges fester and poison your future happiness......get your revenge as quickly as possible.

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    Re: controllers for trim

    [QUOTE=JackMaXX;356249]
    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Highseas View Post
    I made one using 5 turn potentiometers with wheels attached. Used an arduino leonardo board.

    [/QUOT
    would 1turn 10k pots work, i cant seem to find 5 turn pots on amazon, single or ten turn is all i see
    too sensitive.

    You really want 3 -5 turn.

    not sure how many these ones are:

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2pcs-WXD3...gAAOSwv-JcgFTf

    might be worth asking though... they are super cheap.

    they look visually like the ones I used.


    these are problaby better quality:

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/POTENTIOM...wAAOSweWVXdTgW

    I think I went with 10k ones... can't actually remember now !!


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  30. #19
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    Re: controllers for trim

    3, 5 turn pot are listed in this site:
    http://potentiometers.com/

  31. #20
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    Re: controllers for trim

    [QUOTE=JackMaXX;356249]
    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Highseas View Post
    I made one using 5 turn potentiometers with wheels attached. Used an arduino leonardo board.

    [/QUOT
    would 1turn 10k pots work, i cant seem to find 5 turn pots on amazon, single or ten turn is all i see
    I have a spare Arduino board here as it goes...

    though the cost effectove vesion is the Teensy... which is basically a miniature clone which does mostly the same thing.

    now....

    somthing to think about....

    you can use wheels as iI have... which are set up as axis controlls...

    OR

    you could use encoders... (rotate the wheel and it clickey clicks... and set this up as analogue... same as a key press.. so as you rotate the dial clicks are read as key presses..... )

    I went for wheels and made a lump on the top of each wheel so i coudl see / feel its poistion. works really well

    I think encoderes could work quite well though. (got a feeling that is how Marcos setup is) (and if you added another push button near each you could have an instant reset bound to that as well... which might be cool)


    Basically... have a think about it.... should be pretty easy to then guide you the right direction !

    and watch your folley unfold


    EDIT... also... once again... i must point out that i got 90% of my guidance from 1Lokos.

    so if you cock it up it's his fault by proxy
    Last edited by ATAG_Highseas; Jun-30-2020 at 16:15.


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    Supporting Member Marco's Avatar
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    Re: controllers for trim

    Hi All,

    My set up ended up being a bit of everything by way of a proof of concept. It was my first foray into soldering, electronics, gears and all sorts and was a massive learning curve...BUT a hell of a lot of fun!

    Anyway, I've used linear pots, rotary pots (single and 10 turn), encoders, DIY Hall sensors, push buttons, toggle switches, micro switches and hooked the lot up to two Bodnar boards.

    If I couldn't get the movement I wanted working happily with, for example, a single turn pot I would throw some gears at it in order to create a greater movement from the trim wheel end, for a much smaller movement at the pot. An alternative would be use a single turn pot on a large diameter trim 'wheel' and ensure that you have some friction damping set up - a pointer on the outer rim of the trim wheel moves a much greater distance than the 'axle' of the potentiometer and the friction helps to take out some of the sensitivity.

    Encoders work fine but you don't necessarily have that visual positional check ability.

    Tis all good fun and once the ideas start coming look forward to some sleepless nights visualising it all!!

    ~S~
    Last edited by Marco; Jun-30-2020 at 16:26.
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    Re: controllers for trim

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post

    Tis all good fun and once the ideas start coming look forward to some sleepless nights visualising it all!!

    ~S~
    Hehe... all part of the ride!


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    - HighseasPeripherals(tm) - Engine Switch Panel - Munitions Switch Panel - Throttle Quadrant Trim Box - Helicopter Collective - Analogue Brake Lever -

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  35. #23
    Supporting Member JackMaXX's Avatar
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    Re: controllers for trim

    Ordered leonardo board, pots and switches, don't worry, when I f*@k it up, there will be plenty of blame to go around for everyone who has been helpful and encouraging on this thread
    Don't let Grudges fester and poison your future happiness......get your revenge as quickly as possible.

  36. #24
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    Re: controllers for trim

    Quote Originally Posted by JackMaXX View Post
    Ordered leonardo board, pots and switches, don't worry, when I f*@k it up, there will be plenty of blame to go around for everyone who has been helpful and encouraging on this thread
    I've been thinking about this... and unlike those other guys I actually think you shouldn't do it at all.

    Anyway... since eveyone else is now taking literally 100% of the blame I'm happy to assist just as they would...





    You will need MMJoy2 https://github.com/MMjoy/mmjoy_en/wiki

    this image:

    Pins_Arduino[leonardo].PNG

    and the attached instructions which work for the Ardiono boards as well.


    Let the games commence !


    Stage 1:

    Making a box with your wheels / switches / etc on and making sure that the arduino board fits inside hapilly....

    I always add a USB B printer socket to the enclosure connected to the board by its micro USB... makes it a LOT easier to plug in and unplug your peripherals... (£2 from China!)


    Stage 2:

    Flash the board with the MMJoy2 software... set a VID and PID, and give your board a name so you can tell when it is in windows...

    Then hook up the wheels... tell the software which ports you are using, calibrate and flash the board (don't worry... we cover this in lesson #3 )



    You can very easily have 6 analogue axis and 17 buttons wired simply and directly to the board. (I'd get yourself some of the iput pins to go in the sockets on the board from an action site so you can solder to those and not the board itself !)

    If you want to add loads more buttons (100+) we will need to start talking about making a button matrix which includes a load of clipping diodes... This is actually pretty simple once you have the concept and have drawn it out.

    but we can get onto that later.... if and when you decide to make an entire controller setup !



    Weirdly I always find that the hardest part of this seems to be getting the firmware onto the arduino board. But that is hardly difficult.

    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by ATAG_Highseas; Jul-01-2020 at 17:15. Reason: spell chucker


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    - HighseasPeripherals(tm) - Engine Switch Panel - Munitions Switch Panel - Throttle Quadrant Trim Box - Helicopter Collective - Analogue Brake Lever -

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  38. #25
    Supporting Member JackMaXX's Avatar
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    Re: controllers for trim

    Thanks Highseas
    one initial question ,should I use any particular grade of electrical wire for connections, I have some 0.5mm single strand telephone wire?
    Don't let Grudges fester and poison your future happiness......get your revenge as quickly as possible.

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    Ace 1lokos's Avatar
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    Re: controllers for trim

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Highseas View Post
    Just don't use download from Github, here are older version of firmware.
    Use download from MegaMOZG page:


    https://sites.google.com/site/mmjoyp...dla-skacivania

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  41. #27
    ATAG Member ATAG_Highseas's Avatar
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    Re: controllers for trim

    Quote Originally Posted by 1lokos View Post
    Just don't use download from Github, here are older version of firmware.
    Use download from MegaMOZG page:


    https://sites.google.com/site/mmjoyp...dla-skacivania
    Good catch !!

    He's a nice guy MegaMozg. He helped me out adding a brake lever to my Virpil stick !


    - ASUS ROG STRIX Z370-E - i7-8700k - ASUS RTX 2080 Ti ROG STRIX OC GAMING - 32GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4 3000MHz -
    - CORSAIR 850W RMx Series PSU - Noctua NH-U14S CPU Cooler -
    - Virpil T50 Mongoos with Warthog Grip plus Extension Set -
    - TM Warthog Throttle -
    - Slaw Device 109 Cam Rudder Pedals -
    - HighseasPeripherals(tm) - Engine Switch Panel - Munitions Switch Panel - Throttle Quadrant Trim Box - Helicopter Collective - Analogue Brake Lever -

    (Operated by a 1972 Standard Issue Talking Monkey)

  42. #28
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    Re: controllers for trim

    Quote Originally Posted by JackMaXX View Post
    I'm currently using various hat switches on my Joystick for controlling rudder and elevator trim, i find it takes a lot of single imputs to adjust trim and was thinking of getting a controller using axes, like the saitek quanrant controller, to use on trim, prop control and rads. any thoughts, are any of you using a similar setup, your opinions would be welcome
    S! JM
    I use two CH Products throttle quadrants for rudder and elevator trim and for water radiator. flaps, undercarriage, prop pitch and throttle.
    I find using axes makes for easier operation and finer control of surfaces/systems.

    I fly the game with my virtual cockpit displayed on a 2nd monitor, which adds to the ease of setting surfaces/systems to desired position


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    Re: controllers for trim

    Is just renders, but this Replika alternative for "trim box" looks nice and practical.


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