Blackout in spitty Vs bf109

[ATAG_JackMaxx]

Is the flight model in Cliffs designed to blackout the pilot in a spitty before the turn envelope of the aircraft is exceeded, I regularly blackout in the spitty while in turn fights with 109s while the 109 pilot in same turn doses not appear to blackout. I tried to force a blackout in a 109 and found that it was not as frequent as in the spitty, the 109 would reach stall parameters before pilot would blackout in a high speed high g turn.

The net effect of this (for me)is that any theoretical advantage the spitty has in a turn fight is lost.

I would be interested to know if these flight characteristics are historically accurate.

[Karaya]

There are several factors playing into this:

1) You simply cannot pull as many Gs as easily in the Bf109 at high speeds as you can in a Spitfire. The latter has much better elevator authority so you can pull harder with less effort.
2) A pursuing aircraft needs to pull more Gs than the aircraft being pursued to get a gun solution in a maneuvering fight. That's called lead pursuit.
3) The Bf109 had a slightly reclined seat and a raised leg position for the pilot, both of which help against the onset of blackout. The Spitfire and Hurricane had neither. Their pilots were sitting perfectly straight up in the cockpit. This is modelled in CloD as far as I know.

[ATAG_JackMaxx]

would rudder input to aid turn help?
any anti g suits in 5.0

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

What Karaya said.

No blackout suits till very late in the war.

Way you avoid this is by practicing "Lag pursuit"... so the nose of your aircraft is pointing behind the aircraft you are chasing... not in front of it.

You should be able to still outturn your opponent in a 109 in your Spit... but you won't black yourself out.

[Dazza]

So having the screen go black and colliding with the aircraft in front is NOT how it's supposed to be done ?

Well silly me. I best go rethink my approach to this combat fighter business.

Daz

[Biggs]

3) The Bf109 had a slightly reclined seat and a raised leg position for the pilot, both of which help against the onset of blackout. The Spitfire and Hurricane had neither. Their pilots were sitting perfectly straight up in the cockpit. This is modelled in CloD as far as I know.

Not true. The rudder pedals on the spit MkII and later had a 'second step' that helped raise the leg position. I've also read accounts of the pilot 'lowering the seat' when going into combat... I don't deny that the 109s seating was more reclined, just that the RAF fighters also had some ergonomic alterations that aided the pilot in combat.

[Baffin]

In my opinion, CLoD is quite accurate at depicting the onset of physiological over-G as the pilot progresses through color loss, grey-out, black out and loss of consciousness. However, there is a problem with the recovery time in our simulator and that's why we have to "sit and wait" until the screen view reappears after blacking out. In real life, when you reduce the G forces, vision is instantly restored unless you have progressed to unconsciousness. Do not confuse "blackout with unconsciousness.

Greyout/blackout is the loss of vision as blood is driven from the eyes and brain due to high gravity. It's not natural for a pilot to become unconsciousness since impending unconsciousness causes the pilot to naturally relax stick back pressure and G forces will automatically diminish. However, since CLoD has no true "Feel", it's easy to continue backpressure well past realistic levels, so you "Pass out". The game is simply simulating what forces you have created, and our game unfortunately knocks you out a little too soon in my opinion. One technique to avoid complete unconsciousness is to limit the use of trim in a dogfight. Dogfight with more backpressure and less trim.

If your elevator trim is set for too low a speed, the Spitfire is capable of self over G if you force it to accelerate in a dive; In other words, the trim will pull too much back pressure for you. In a Spitfire, self over G is less likely if trim is set faster than 2 units Aircraft Nose Down. In any case, reduce power to IDLE and gently add forward stick pressure to recover from simulated unconsciousness/blackout. This is unrealistic of course, since unconscious pilots can't do either, but it works to some degree in the game. If you do nothing, you're at the mercy of your power and trim setting.

Rudder can be used as a "Pointer" for gun aiming, but keep in mind it's an energy killer. It's effective for reducing G's inasmuch as it slows the airplane down, but only in that indirect way. Rudder in a blacked out condition is also a spin risk... it's up to you!

EDIT: I found this resource for those who care to look further into this. There's a section entitled "The G-Loc", which has a good explanation of "Blackout" vs. "Unconsciousness".

https://goflightmedicine.com/pulling-gs/

[Little Bill]

Can G Force/Blackout levels be set on the servers? The reason I ask is because it seems to me that some of the servers have blackout levels set more sensitive than I find in Single Player.

[ATAG_JackMaxx]

Thanks all for responses, some good advice and things to try out

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

No.... you blackout at the same G level whatever the server.... although if you are at higher altitudes you should understand the thinner air means it is more difficult to generate G's.

Also temperature levels affect the density of the atmosphere... which again can affect the ability to generate G's.

Can G Force/Blackout levels be set on the servers? The reason I ask is because it seems to me that some of the servers have blackout levels set more sensitive than I find in Single Player.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Complete blackout where it takes time to recover is unconsciousness... and this happened a lot in WW2.

Dancing at the edge of unconsciousness is what you are talking about.

Currently we don't reduce or stop the player control of his stick... may do that in the future.

In my opinion, CLoD is quite accurate at depicting the onset of physiological over-G as the pilot progresses through color loss, grey-out, black out and loss of consciousness. However, there is a problem with the recovery time in our simulator and that's why we have to "sit and wait" until the screen view reappears after blacking out. In real life, when you reduce the G forces, vision is instantly restored unless you have progressed to unconsciousness. Do not confuse "blackout with unconsciousness.

Greyout/blackout is the loss of vision as blood is driven from the eyes and brain due to high gravity. It's not natural for a pilot to become unconsciousness since impending unconsciousness causes the pilot to naturally relax stick back pressure and G forces will automatically diminish. However, since CLoD has no true "Feel", it's easy to continue backpressure well past realistic levels, so you "Pass out". The game is simply simulating what forces you have created, and our game unfortunately knocks you out a little too soon in my opinion. One technique to avoid complete unconsciousness is to limit the use of trim in a dogfight. Dogfight with more backpressure and less trim.

If your elevator trim is set for too low a speed, the Spitfire is capable of self over G if you force it to accelerate in a dive; In other words, the trim will pull too much back pressure for you. In a Spitfire, self over G is less likely if trim is set faster than 2 units Aircraft Nose Down. In any case, reduce power to IDLE and gently add forward stick pressure to recover from simulated unconsciousness/blackout. This is unrealistic of course, since unconscious pilots can't do either, but it works to some degree in the game. If you do nothing, you're at the mercy of your power and trim setting.

Rudder can be used as a "Pointer" for gun aiming, but keep in mind it's an energy killer. It's effective for reducing G's inasmuch as it slows the airplane down, but only in that indirect way. Rudder in a blacked out condition is also a spin risk... it's up to you!

[Baffin]

I found this resource for those who care to look further into this. There's a section entitled "The G-Loc", which has a good explanation of "Blackout" vs. "Unconsciousness", and is well referenced in the footnotes.

https://goflightmedicine.com/pulling-gs/