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Thread: Mixture, AI, and WOW!

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    Mixture, AI, and WOW!

    Greetings All
    So, I confess to have been one of those souls who hounded the team relentlessly regarding the AI dogfighting skills to be expected in TF 5.0 Tobruk.
    Beware of what you wish for.

    With the AI set in the FMB according to an ancient scroll written by our brother Heinkill, I spent the entire evening after downloading 5.0 simply trying to shoot down ONE AI enemy without getting my tail blown off by same. Still trying........................
    I have to confess that I was somewhat skeptical of how good the new aircraft would be, compared to the original release aircraft. The answer is, simply world-class. Worth twice every penny........................
    I do have a question regarding the mixture settings of American designed aircraft (P-40 and F4F Wildcat i.e., "Martlet"):
    The mixture seems to emulate British settings, i.e., throttle position dependent, full rich or full lean, unlike the American standard, which is Auto Rich for MOST flying. Settings should be linear and proportional to Mixture lever. Position of the throttle is typically of no consequence. In TF 5.0, American aircraft mixture settings are very "British", full rich, or lean, no in-between, and ability to adjust the mixture very dependent on the throttle position.
    I believe this may be a legacy coding of the British system, and believe me, I wish the Team a long, long vacation before revisiting such trifles, but am wondering if in a future patch these things may be addressed.
    What a gem this release is.
    Please do not regard my trifling complaints as being in any way a criticism of the overall work. TF deserves a princely decoration for this. Thank you!
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    Re: Mixture, AI, and WOW!

    Good to hear about the AI. I got my ass shot off in a couple campaigns and during a 1v1 with a 109F2 (me in a Martlet), after the first pass the 109 just extended, climbed, and then BnZ me until I was done. I thought it was an amazing improvement.

    Mixture issues are known about the US aircraft but thanks for reporting.
    Spiritus

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    Re: Mixture, AI, and WOW!

    Quote Originally Posted by chris455 View Post
    Greetings All
    So, I confess to have been one of those souls who hounded the team relentlessly regarding the AI dogfighting skills to be expected in TF 5.0 Tobruk.
    Beware of what you wish for.

    With the AI set in the FMB according to an ancient scroll written by our brother Heinkill, I spent the entire evening after downloading 5.0 simply trying to shoot down ONE AI enemy without getting my tail blown off by same. Still trying........................
    I have to confess that I was somewhat skeptical of how good the new aircraft would be, compared to the original release aircraft. The answer is, simply world-class. Worth twice every penny........................
    I do have a question regarding the mixture settings of American designed aircraft (P-40 and F4F Wildcat i.e., "Martlet"):
    The mixture seems to emulate British settings, i.e., throttle position dependent, full rich or full lean, unlike the American standard, which is Auto Rich for MOST flying. Settings should be linear and proportional to Mixture lever. Position of the throttle is typically of no consequence. In TF 5.0, American aircraft mixture settings are very "British", full rich, or lean, no in-between, and ability to adjust the mixture very dependent on the throttle position.
    I believe this may be a legacy coding of the British system, and believe me, I wish the Team a long, long vacation before revisiting such trifles, but am wondering if in a future patch these things may be addressed.
    What a gem this release is.
    Please do not regard my trifling complaints as being in any way a criticism of the overall work. TF deserves a princely decoration for this. Thank you!
    Hello Chris

    The normal mix on the US aircraft is Auto Rich... there is no movement of the mix lever at this setting. The same applies at Auto Lean, no movement. There is also 'Idle Cutoff', which is used during startup, as well as 'Full Rich' which is normally only used for special situations.

    In CLIFFS OF DOVER or TOBRUK, the game allows currently for two types of mix systems... a two position 'Auto Rich/Auto Lean' system or a full sliding manual range. Some Fuel injected types like the Daimler Benz are fully auto.

    We have modeled the US aircraft as a two position system... Auto Rich/Auto Lean. I realize this is not entirely accurate, but in most cases, the aircraft were used in these positions.

    Normally you don't move the mix from Auto Rich.... just fly normally like that.

    If you want to go to Auto Lean, then reduce rpms to 2600, reduce throttle to 32 In, and toggle to Auto Lean. The mix will adjust to a fraction %. The aircraft throttle and rpms should then not be adjusted except minimally up or down. Auto Lean should never be used in combat and a combination of full throttle and max. rpms should be avoided in all circumstances or engine damage will result.

    When you are ready to go back to Auto Rich, then move the throttle to 100%, and toggle mix again so it goes to 100%. Then adjust your rpms and throttle as necessary and fly normally.

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    Re: Mixture, AI, and WOW!

    Howdy Buzzsaw,

    Another question about the Mixture control on the Martlet. I understand from your post above that the control is currently only modeled for 0% and 100%. On the mixture control I see that full back (Idle Cut Off) shows 100% and Rich (full forward) shows 0%. The Martlet fly faster when Mixture is set to full back (Idle Cut Off) 0%. Is this a modeling error or bug or am I reading this wrong?

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    Re: Mixture, AI, and WOW!

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneStar View Post
    Howdy Buzzsaw,

    Another question about the Mixture control on the Martlet. I understand from your post above that the control is currently only modeled for 0% and 100%. On the mixture control I see that full back (Idle Cut Off) shows 100% and Rich (full forward) shows 0%. The Martlet fly faster when Mixture is set to full back (Idle Cut Off) 0%. Is this a modeling error or bug or am I reading this wrong?
    It might fly faster for a while... then it will blow up.

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    Re: Mixture, AI, and WOW!

    Hi Chris,

    You might find this article I wrote on the mixture controls in Spits and Hurries of interest. It’s basically a write up of the work one of the TFS original developers, IvanK, did in the pre-TFS days working with the early 1C devs to accurately simulate the mixture controls in the early marks of these two aircraft.

    Cheers,

    Snapper

    https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.c...l=1#post193803


    Quote Originally Posted by chris455 View Post
    Greetings All
    So, I confess to have been one of those souls who hounded the team relentlessly regarding the AI dogfighting skills to be expected in TF 5.0 Tobruk.
    Beware of what you wish for.

    With the AI set in the FMB according to an ancient scroll written by our brother Heinkill, I spent the entire evening after downloading 5.0 simply trying to shoot down ONE AI enemy without getting my tail blown off by same. Still trying........................
    I have to confess that I was somewhat skeptical of how good the new aircraft would be, compared to the original release aircraft. The answer is, simply world-class. Worth twice every penny........................
    I do have a question regarding the mixture settings of American designed aircraft (P-40 and F4F Wildcat i.e., "Martlet"):
    The mixture seems to emulate British settings, i.e., throttle position dependent, full rich or full lean, unlike the American standard, which is Auto Rich for MOST flying. Settings should be linear and proportional to Mixture lever. Position of the throttle is typically of no consequence. In TF 5.0, American aircraft mixture settings are very "British", full rich, or lean, no in-between, and ability to adjust the mixture very dependent on the throttle position.
    I believe this may be a legacy coding of the British system, and believe me, I wish the Team a long, long vacation before revisiting such trifles, but am wondering if in a future patch these things may be addressed.
    What a gem this release is.
    Please do not regard my trifling complaints as being in any way a criticism of the overall work. TF deserves a princely decoration for this. Thank you!


    i7 4770K @3.5 GHZ, 24 Gigs DDR3 1600 DIMM, Gigabyte GTX980ti 6 Gig, Win 10 64 bit, TrackIR 5, TM16000 joystick, TM Warthog HOTAS, CH Quadrant, Saitek Pro Combat rudder pedals

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    Re: Mixture, AI, and WOW!

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper View Post
    Hi Chris,

    You might find this article I wrote on the mixture controls in Spits and Hurries of interest. It’s basically a write up of the work one of the TFS original developers, IvanK, did in the pre-TFS days working with the early 1C devs to accurately simulate the mixture controls in the early marks of these two aircraft.

    Cheers,

    Snapper

    https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.c...l=1#post193803
    Snapper, thank you very much for providing this. I will read it in full. Really enjoying the sim now, I cant get over how nicely the new planes are modelled. Salute!
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    In honor of Arlie "Jack" Campbell, (1923-2006), United States Army Air Forces, WWII. Well done, Sir.

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    Re: Mixture, AI, and WOW!

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneStar View Post
    Howdy Buzzsaw,

    Another question about the Mixture control on the Martlet. I understand from your post above that the control is currently only modeled for 0% and 100%. On the mixture control I see that full back (Idle Cut Off) shows 100% and Rich (full forward) shows 0%. The Martlet fly faster when Mixture is set to full back (Idle Cut Off) 0%. Is this a modeling error or bug or am I reading this wrong?
    I have noticed this as well with the Martlet- in fact it seems that when the mixture lever is set to Auto Rich, the ship begins to vibrate violently until you put the lever all the way back to Lean.
    It's going to take some getting used to.
    I'm sure ATAG Snapper's article will shed some light, as soon as I have time to study it.
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    In honor of Arlie "Jack" Campbell, (1923-2006), United States Army Air Forces, WWII. Well done, Sir.

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    Re: Mixture, AI, and WOW!

    Thanks Snapper,

    Your reply answered my question.

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    Re: Mixture, AI, and WOW!

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneStar View Post
    Thanks Snapper,

    Your reply answered my question.
    Great!

    You should’ve seen how screwed up the mixture controls were back in 2011 when Cliffs of Dover was first released. The mixture control was modelled differently in each Spit and Hurri variant - a real nightmare to figure out. It was a challenge to keep the Merlin engines from seizing up, let alone engage in combat. IvanK (a real life pilot himself) did the research and reached out to the 1C dev team and got it fixed. What a difference that made for all of us!



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    Re: Mixture, AI, and WOW!

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper View Post
    Great!

    You should’ve seen how screwed up the mixture controls were back in 2011 when Cliffs of Dover was first released. The mixture control was modelled differently in each Spit and Hurri variant - a real nightmare to figure out. It was a challenge to keep the Merlin engines from seizing up, let alone engage in combat. IvanK (a real life pilot himself) did the research and reached out to the 1C dev team and got it fixed. What a difference that made for all of us!

    Snapper-
    Read your article (thank you) and now I get it: 0% is AUTO RICH and 100% is AUTO LEAN, no "in-between". 90% of our flying should take place under one or the other of these regimens.
    So I must ask: Are these settings, originally designed for British systems, able to be coded at some point to more accurately emulate the behavior of US systems, or are they so deeply embedded in the code as to prevent their being adapted? With so very many British A/C currently in the sim, I would anticipate that any future expansion would probably include more Lend-Lease (i.e.) US aircraft. In the spirit of historical accuracy, might we anticipate this adjustment in some future patch? (Say, after around a year-long vacation for the team ).

    It never hurts to ask!
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    Re: Mixture, AI, and WOW!

    Quote Originally Posted by chris455 View Post
    Snapper-
    Read your article (thank you) and now I get it: 0% is AUTO RICH and 100% is AUTO LEAN, no "in-between". 90% of our flying should take place under one or the other of these regimens.
    So I must ask: Are these settings, originally designed for British systems, able to be coded at some point to more accurately emulate the behavior of US systems, or are they so deeply embedded in the code as to prevent their being adapted? With so very many British A/C currently in the sim, I would anticipate that any future expansion would probably include more Lend-Lease (i.e.) US aircraft. In the spirit of historical accuracy, might we anticipate this adjustment in some future patch? (Say, after around a year-long vacation for the team ).

    It never hurts to ask!
    Hi Chris,

    I will leave that for the TFS technical team members to address. I find your questions of great interest, and I know how detail-oriented the TFS modellers are. I will run your queries by them because I know they aspire to 100% fidelity to the actual systems as they existed in a given theatre and time period.

    Stay tuned!

    Cheers,

    Snapper


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    Re: Mixture, AI, and WOW!

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper View Post
    Hi Chris,

    I will leave that for the TFS technical team members to address. I find your questions of great interest, and I know how detail-oriented the TFS modellers are. I will run your queries by them because I know they aspire to 100% fidelity to the actual systems as they existed in a given theatre and time period.

    Stay tuned!

    Cheers,

    Snapper
    Thank you Sir!
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    Re: Mixture, AI, and WOW!

    Quote Originally Posted by chris455 View Post
    Greetings All
    With the AI set in the FMB according to an ancient scroll written by our brother Heinkill, I spent the entire evening after downloading 5.0 simply trying to shoot down ONE AI enemy without getting my tail blown off by same. Still trying........................
    I have to confess that I was somewhat skeptical of how good the new aircraft would be, compared to the original release aircraft. The answer is, simply world-class. Worth twice every penny........................
    On the one hand it is nice to hear that the old AI tweaks are still relevant on the other hand it is a bit sad if the old pre Blitz/DW AI tweaks are still relevant!

    For anyone wondering what Chris is referring to, see below if you want to tinker with AI in the SP missions and campaigns, tho I hope a TF AI guru will chime in and say these tips are outdated now.

    *****

    Load the mission in the full mission builder.

    Right click on the aircraft flight you want to work with, and choose PROPERTIES

    On the GROUP PROPERTIES menu you will see one for the whole flight which is called SKILL. In the dropdown list, set this to VETERAN (never ACE).

    Click on the '...' (dot dot dot) button to the right of this dropdown list. This will give you a set of individual fields you can play with. These features aren't documented anywhere, so after much trial and error I will tell you how I set them to get the best results.

    BASIC FLYING: Leave this at veteran

    ADVANCED FLYING: move this back a notch, which seems to help reduce the rolling rolling rolling behaviour

    AWARENESS: increase to max. This gives the AI a chance to realise you are sneaking up behind them, and stops them suddenly flipping into level flight in the middle of a dogfight just because they can't 'see' you anymore.

    AERIAL GUNNERY: increase to max. This eliminates the problem that on lower settings the AI pilots are crap at deflection shooting, and also burn all their ammo in long hosepipe bursts. At max setting the AI is not only a better shot, but doesn't waste ammo so badly. Beware though: this setting also affects bomb accuracy (good) and bomber gunner accuracy (bad). So with bombers, it is a good idea to go to the individual plane tabs in the PROPERTIES screen and set only one or two of them to gunnery max, and leave the others as veteran or average. Otherwise you risk getting slaughtered by deadeye gunners.

    TACTICS: leave at veteran

    VISION: increase to max. This increases the 'bubble' around the aircraft which allows the AI pilots to detect other aircraft. If you don't max it out, they can just fly straight past each other.

    BRAVERY: Set to max. This seems to determine the damage level at which enemy aircraft will cut and run, either at the flight level (x out of x aircraft destroyed) or individual level (x% damage). The lower you set it, the more likely they will bug out. Very important for bombers because at lower settings a couple of flack hits to a couple of aircraft will send the whole raid running for home.

    DISCIPLINE: This setting affects how likely a unit is to follow its assigned orders or attack its assigned target. For fighters, leave this at standard VETERAN setting or even AVERAGE. If you set it to max for fighters, you will get situations where fighters assigned to attack bombers, will ignore the group of fighters coming straight at them, and get slaughtered, because they have been assigned to attack bombers. Also, at higher settings it seems to affect the likelihood the WINGMAN will just stupidly follow his leader around, rather than getting into the fight. Obviously though in some mission designs, you do want your Hurricanes to go for the bombers and your Spitfires to go for the fighters, so it can be useful. But usually it isn't.

    For bombers however, or dive/fighter bombers with specific ground targets, I set this to maximum. This increases the chances the bomber or dive/fighter bomber will go for the assigned ground target. At lower settings they can get 'distracted' by other targets that are near the waypoint and attack these instead.

    On a final note, the skill setting is also relevant for SHIPS. If you set it to ace for ships, they are deadeye shots at maximum range, for both their large bore guns, and their AAA and you will get slaughtered flying over a minensuchboot, even in a fighter. Set ships to AVERAGE.

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    Re: Mixture, AI, and WOW!

    Just my $0.2.

    This Heinkill adjusts was made in "vanilla".

    In Blitz AI settings was overall increased, so now with sliders in 50% became dangerous for most players, with 100%...

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    Re: Mixture, AI, and WOW!

    Quote Originally Posted by 1lokos View Post
    Just my $0.2.

    This Heinkill adjusts was made in "vanilla".

    In Blitz AI settings was overall increased, so now with sliders in 50% became dangerous for most players, with 100%...


    I have stated it before, my principle concern- and reason that I was so disappointed with the initial release- was the lackluster AI, especially in 1 v 1 and 1 v many engagements.
    During the long march from initial release and TF 5.0, with all the milestones in between- I despaired many times that the team, no matter how dedicated or skilled, would be able to get the AI off of life support. It seemed to me as though, in spite of massive improvements in other areas of the sim, the AI was simply doomed to emulate wash-outs from flight school, cowardly lions, and boy scouts who couldn't navigate to to the taxiway, let alone give the player any kind of meaningful challenge in the air.
    But now...................
    Words can't describe the change in the AI in TF 5.0 compared to vanilla IMHO, or even in Blitz to be honest. And Heinkill's tweaks, albeit dated, are still very effective in composing a truly formidable AI, especially with the current release.
    I don't mean to gush, but I regard what the team has done here is the coding equivalent of walking on water or turning water into wine. TF 5.0 Tobruk may be the best, most realistic AI I have ever flown against. And my flight sim experience goes all the way back to the original release of MS Flight Simulator, and everything we've seen since.
    OK, I'll stop now.
    S!
    Last edited by chris455; Aug-15-2020 at 20:16.
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    Re: Mixture, AI, and WOW!

    Quote Originally Posted by chris455 View Post
    TF 5.0 Tobruk may be the best, most realistic AI I have ever flown against. And my flight sim experience goes all the way back to the original release of MS Flight Simulator, and everything we've seen since.
    OK, I'll stop now.
    S!
    So good to hear. I've only got a few hours of DW under my belt so far but yes, am having trouble knocking down AI fighters ... which hopefully is more than just a factor of me being rusty AF.

    Not so sure about ability of AI to destroy AI, or AI engaging player ... but early days and not so optimistic. Most AI pilots seem still to just sit behind target and hose them with poorly aimed non stop burst until ammo expended and then bug out. Most AI evading AI seems unable to see the AI behind themselves so does a poor job of evading.

    H
    Last edited by heinkill; Aug-28-2020 at 09:29.

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    Re: Mixture, AI, and WOW!

    Quote Originally Posted by chris455 View Post
    I have stated it before, my principle concern- and reason that I was so disappointed with the initial release- was the lackluster AI, especially in 1 v 1 and 1 v many engagements.
    During the long march from initial release and TF 5.0, with all the milestones in between- I despaired many times that the team, no matter how dedicated or skilled, would be able to get the AI off of life support. It seemed to me as though, in spite of massive improvements in other areas of the sim, the AI was simply doomed to emulate wash-outs from flight school, cowardly lions, and boy scouts who couldn't navigate to to the taxiway, let alone give the player any kind of meaningful challenge in the air.
    But now...................
    Words can't describe the change in the AI in TF 5.0 compared to vanilla IMHO, or even in Blitz to be honest. And Heinkill's tweaks, albeit dated, are still very effective in composing a truly formidable AI, especially with the current release.
    I don't mean to gush, but I regard what the team has done here is the coding equivalent of walking on water or turning water into wine. TF 5.0 Tobruk may be the best, most realistic AI I have ever flown against. And my flight sim experience goes all the way back to the original release of MS Flight Simulator, and everything we've seen since.
    OK, I'll stop now.
    S!
    Hi Chris,

    If you get a chance, can you write a review on Steam for us? Many people ask about the improved AI. Would be great to those looking to buy Tobruk to hear the thoughts of a community member.

    And for anyone else reading this, we would appreciate a a couple of minutes to leave a positive review as well.

    This helps us a lot.


    Cheers,

    Pattle

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    Re: Mixture, AI, and WOW!

    I noticed this also! I was jumped by four P-40s and it was hell lol.
    Last edited by IIJG27Rich; Aug-16-2020 at 07:18.

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  30. #20
    Supporting Member chris455's Avatar
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    Re: Mixture, AI, and WOW!

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Pattle View Post
    Hi Chris,

    If you get a chance, can you write a review on Steam for us? Many people ask about the improved AI. Would be great to those looking to buy Tobruk to hear the thoughts of a community member.

    And for anyone else reading this, we would appreciate a a couple of minutes to leave a positive review as well.

    This helps us a lot.


    Cheers,

    Pattle
    Hi Pattle!
    I got a little chuckle out of this, but it's all good and I am honored, please see the following post from a few days ago:
    https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.c...ad.php?t=33833

    S!
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    In honor of Arlie "Jack" Campbell, (1923-2006), United States Army Air Forces, WWII. Well done, Sir.

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    Novice Pilot Dawson's Avatar
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    Re: Mixture...

    Can the Martlet's (and P40's) mixture controls please be reviewed? I've read the explanation above that mixture is limited to auto rich/auto lean, like in the Spitfire, or fully variable, like modeled in the P40 'hawks.

    As it stands now it's confusing. When the lever is fully aft the mixture is rich, the virtual controls displays 100% (contrary to Spit's 0% when rich), and the graphics on the quadrant are below AL (auto lean I suppose). Moving the lever forward gives the opposite, 0% virtual control and past AR on the quadrant and the performance you'd expect running the engine lean.

    As I understand the actual controls of the Martlet and P40 the mixture had four settings from aft to forward; Idle cut-off, auto lean; auto rich and full rich. I think the Martlet and P40 mixtures should behave the same in game. Ideally modeling the four settings is preferred but practically either fully manual with the forward lever rich or two position auto mixture with rich forward. Of these two I prefer two position auto for both (3) planes.

    A third less desirable but simpler I suspect would be to revise the graphics in the Martlet so the quadrant shows lean forward and rich back.

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    TF Leadership RAF74_Buzzsaw's Avatar
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    Re: Mixture, AI, and WOW!

    We will look at correcting the mixture for these aircraft some time in the future.

    Right now, they are functional for the typical operation of them in combat flight conditions.

    Typically they were used in either auto lean for extended distance flights when combat was not expected, or auto rich for combat zones.

  33. #23
    Novice Pilot Dawson's Avatar
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    Re: Mixture, AI, and WOW!

    Thanks for the reply Buzzsaw. I understand revising the mixture for the US planes is a significant undertaking. My concern is that every indication the Martlet tells the pilot the plane is set to rich mixture when it's lean. It took a while before I realized why my planes were failing and it's possible others aren't aware what's going on either. Barring any software change I suggest it be reference in a future manual revision.

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