Bug report: Gladiator campaign take off delays

[bb5000]

The 3rd and 4th missions (and possibly others, but I haven't played more) includes a delayed start, waiting for other aircraft. So, my flight of 5 Gladiators wait and wait. In mission 3, some Hurricanes are landing and taxi to parking, and then it takes several minutes (like 5 minutes on time compression) before we get take-off clearance (btw the Radio menu says "take-off clearing" , which for me is an open space in the forest..). Anyway, I find the take-off delay a bit annoying, sitting there and burning fuel, so maybe this can be tweaked.

[ATAG_Ezzie]

The 3rd and 4th missions (and possibly others, but I haven't played more) includes a delayed start, waiting for other aircraft. So, my flight of 5 Gladiators wait and wait. In mission 3, some Hurricanes are landing and taxi to parking, and then it takes several minutes (like 5 minutes on time compression) before we get take-off clearance (btw the Radio menu says "take-off clearing" , which for me is an open space in the forest..). Anyway, I find the take-off delay a bit annoying, sitting there and burning fuel, so maybe this can be tweaked.

Hi bb5000.

Thanks for the feeback. I'll take a look.

To help troubeshoot - were are you when you are waiting and waiting? At the runway threshold or at your spawn in point?

If its at the threshold did your flight leader say 'ready for take off' or words to that effect on the radio while you were waiting?

If so try tab 7-7 when your leader does this. This is the instruction from mission 1 and it applies to all missions where you are #2 - maybe this is the problem?

You are #2 in this sortie and for most sorties in this campaign. Your lead (#1) is parked at your 10 o'clock position and you should start up and taxi and follow your leader to the runway for take off. When your leader states he is ready for take off press Tab 7-7 to let him know via radio that you are ready for take-off. If you don't do this the leader probably won't take off as he is waiting for you to let him know that you are ready.


If its none of the above let me know and I'll take a look

Ezzie

[ATAG_Flare]

What I like to do in all singleplayer missions is to toggle on the autopilot for a few seconds while still on the ground, this gives the AI control of your plane and it will quickly send/receive the correct radio messages to get proper take-off clearance. Once I get "aircraft out front, ready for take off" I toggle off the autopilot again and I'm good to go.

[bb5000]

Hi bb5000.

Thanks for the feeback. I'll take a look.

To help troubeshoot - were are you when you are waiting and waiting? At the runway threshold or at your spawn in point?

If its at the threshold did your flight leader say 'ready for take off' or words to that effect on the radio while you were waiting?

If so try tab 7-7 when your leader does this. This is the instruction from mission 1 and it applies to all missions where you are #2 - maybe this is the problem?

You are #2 in this sortie and for most sorties in this campaign. Your lead (#1) is parked at your 10 o'clock position and you should start up and taxi and follow your leader to the runway for take off. When your leader states he is ready for take off press Tab 7-7 to let him know via radio that you are ready for take-off. If you don't do this the leader probably won't take off as he is waiting for you to let him know that you are ready.


If its none of the above let me know and I'll take a look

Ezzie

I started the engine and let i run for a while at the spawn point, then taxied a bit towards the runway. Watched the Hurricanes landing. Pressed Tab 7-6 (got access denied) and 7-7 several times. I see that the Flight lead ”Jacko 1” (who at this point holds short of the runway)requests take-off from the tower several times before finally getting permission to take-off. Do I need to stand exactly behind #1 ? At some point I tried engaging the auto-pilot which then turned the a/c back to the spawn point, so that didn’t help either.
But I’ll try again.. And sorry for spamming the same issue in the IL2 forum...where do you prefer to have possible bug reports posted ? Here or the IL2 forum ?

[ATAG_Ezzie]

I started the engine and let i run for a while at the spawn point, then taxied a bit towards the runway. Watched the Hurricanes landing. Pressed Tab 7-6 (got access denied) and 7-7 several times. I see that the Flight lead ”Jacko 1” (who at this point holds short of the runway)requests take-off from the tower several times before finally getting permission to take-off. Do I need to stand exactly behind #1 ? At some point I tried engaging the auto-pilot which then turned the a/c back to the spawn point, so that didn’t help either.
But I’ll try again.. And sorry for spamming the same issue in the IL2 forum...where do you prefer to have possible bug reports posted ? Here or the IL2 forum ?

Hi bb5000,

Thanks for the follow-up.

re positioning - i ran both missions today and they worked OK when i hand flew the aircraft. In mission#4 there is some delay to your flight leader starting to taxi - this is due to the AI waiting until the Hurri flight that has just taken off clears the airfield and departs the immediate vicinity of the airfield.

I did experiment a bit to try and replicate what might be happening and i think i may have figured it out. As #2 you have to park reasonably close to #1 - maybe within a 1 - 2 wingspans of #1 and be on the runway when you are ready for take-off. The other aircraft seem to position themselves based to some extent on your position as well so if you aren't nice and close to #1 they are spread out and arent in the 'ready for take off position it seems'. So even if #1 has done the ready for take off check and you have replied there seems to be some positional requirement that #2, #3, #4 etc have to be in to ensure the flight leader takes off.

I deliberately positioned my aircraft off the runaway and maybe 50 metres from #1 and i think i was able to replicate the situation you found yourself in re the delayed take-off.

So maybe try again and see if you can tuck in nice and close to #1 on the runway and repeat the tab 7-7 radio process and see how you go. I'd be interested in hearing how you go especially if this doesn't fix your problem.

re preference - I dont mind so its up to you. I hang out here on ATAG mostly but with the release of DWT I've been frequenting the IL-2 forum in case i can be of assistance re the campaigns etc.

Thanks again for the feedback and pls let me know if the above helps with your issue. If it doesn't let me know and we can trouble shoot it some more.

Ezzie

[bb5000]

Hi bb5000,

Thanks for the follow-up.

re positioning - i ran both missions today and they worked OK when i hand flew the aircraft. In mission#4 there is some delay to your flight leader starting to taxi - this is due to the AI waiting until the Hurri flight that has just taken off clears the airfield and departs the immediate vicinity of the airfield.

I did experiment a bit to try and replicate what might be happening and i think i may have figured it out. As #2 you have to park reasonably close to #1 - maybe within a 1 - 2 wingspans of #1 and be on the runway when you are ready for take-off. The other aircraft seem to position themselves based to some extent on your position as well so if you aren't nice and close to #1 they are spread out and arent in the 'ready for take off position it seems'. So even if #1 has done the ready for take off check and you have replied there seems to be some positional requirement that #2, #3, #4 etc have to be in to ensure the flight leader takes off.

I deliberately positioned my aircraft off the runaway and maybe 50 metres from #1 and i think i was able to replicate the situation you found yourself in re the delayed take-off.

So maybe try again and see if you can tuck in nice and close to #1 on the runway and repeat the tab 7-7 radio process and see how you go. I'd be interested in hearing how you go especially if this doesn't fix your problem.

re preference - I dont mind so its up to you. I hang out here on ATAG mostly but with the release of DWT I've been frequenting the IL-2 forum in case i can be of assistance re the campaigns etc.

Thanks again for the feedback and pls let me know if the above helps with your issue. If it doesn't let me know and we can trouble shoot it some more.

Ezzie

I flew mission 4 again and stuck to the tail of #1 up to the hold short position. It took 6-7 minutes + 3 "Ready for takeoff" from #1 before we got clearance. Before the clearance was allowed, I positioned my a/c almost beside #1 , on the right side..maybe that triggered the clearance, maybe not. Yesterday I had to wait for 5+ minutes on max time compression..so this is a difference.

oh, another thing. I engaged auto-pilot after takeoff and it flew right up the a$$ of #1..

[ATAG_Ezzie]

I flew mission 4 again and stuck to the tail of #1 up to the hold short position. It took 6-7 minutes + 3 "Ready for takeoff" from #1 before we got clearance. Before the clearance was allowed, I positioned my a/c almost beside #1 , on the right side..maybe that triggered the clearance, maybe not. Yesterday I had to wait for 5+ minutes on max time compression..so this is a difference.

Ok - thanks bb5000. I'll do some more investigating 'under the hood' and see what i can find.

If you play any more of the campaign I'd be interested if you experience this again in another mission - might help narrow down the cause perhaps. A couple of the missions you are the lead but there's still a couple more when you are #2.

Thanks

Ezzie

[bb5000]

Ok - thanks bb5000. I'll do some more investigating 'under the hood' and see what i can find.

If you play any more of the campaign I'd be interested if you experience this again in another mission - might help narrow down the cause perhaps. A couple of the missions you are the lead but there's still a couple more when you are #2.

Thanks

Ezzie

I've flown the mission 3 times now, engaging Auto-pilot immediately at mission start and it flies correctly in formation every time now on auto-pilot.

[ATAG_Ezzie]

I've flown the mission 3 times now, engaging Auto-pilot immediately at mission start and it flies correctly in formation every time now on auto-pilot.

Thanks bb5000 - useful to know.

If you engage auto-pilot for 1 - 2 seconds at the start of the mission and then disengage it and hand taxi / fly the aircraft to the threshold does it work correctly?

[bb5000]

Thanks bb5000 - useful to know.

If you engage auto-pilot for 1 - 2 seconds at the start of the mission and then disengage it and hand taxi / fly the aircraft to the threshold does it work correctly?

I tried that on the next mission (#5 ? The ground attack evening mission). Autopilot a couple of seconds...then I taxied to the threshold and parked slightly behind and to the right of the flight leader, entered 7-7. No clearance..but then the rest of the flight hadn´t moved from the parking area. Entered Autopilot which started to taxi back to the parking area. Exited autopilot, then tried to follow the "taxiway" (bloody hard to see that path). At some point , the rest of the flight followed and as soon as #3 was in position beside me at the threshold, we got clearance. So...I guess that I took a shortcut to the runway initially and that caused the rest of the flight to stay in the parking area.
Ok...so on with the patrol..flew on Autopilot which kept me in formation , started the strafing attack and when ordered to RTB, I activated the Autopilot which flew directly into the ground.
Restarted the mission, now flying all the way on Autopilot and time compression to get back to the action. Collided with a flight member. End of mission.

It´s a bit like Lowengrin´s IL2 DCG early versions where waypoint placement caused collisions .. I´m not sure if the autopilot calculations are less precise when T/C is on or if the formation is too tight. Anyway , accidents like this happened in real life ...

[ATAG_Ezzie]

I tried that on the next mission (#5 ? The ground attack evening mission). Autopilot a couple of seconds...then I taxied to the threshold and parked slightly behind and to the right of the flight leader, entered 7-7. No clearance..but then the rest of the flight hadn´t moved from the parking area. Entered Autopilot which started to taxi back to the parking area. Exited autopilot, then tried to follow the "taxiway" (bloody hard to see that path). At some point , the rest of the flight followed and as soon as #3 was in position beside me at the threshold, we got clearance. So...I guess that I took a shortcut to the runway initially and that caused the rest of the flight to stay in the parking area.
Ok...so on with the patrol..flew on Autopilot which kept me in formation , started the strafing attack and when ordered to RTB, I activated the Autopilot which flew directly into the ground.
Restarted the mission, now flying all the way on Autopilot and time compression to get back to the action. Collided with a flight member. End of mission.

It´s a bit like Lowengrin´s IL2 DCG early versions where waypoint placement caused collisions .. I´m not sure if the autopilot calculations are less precise when T/C is on or if the formation is too tight. Anyway , accidents like this happened in real life ...

Hi again bb5000 - sorry to hear you are still having some issues.

Ive got some time tonight - hopefully - and will look at what might be happening. I ran these missions countless times using autopilot when making them and hand flew them a couple of times as a final quality control check But i probably didnt replicate every situation that could be encountered when humans fly them and it seems like you have found some new issues

re autopilot - ouch. Can you recall what altitude / attitude you were at when you activated the autopilot after the RTB call went out. And can you recall approximately where you were when the collision happened with respect to the ground atatck waypoint?

I'll start looking tonight and see what i can find. Thanks for the ongoing feedback - hopefully i can find ways to imprve things somehow.

Ezzie

[ATAG_Ezzie]

I flew mission 4 again and stuck to the tail of #1 up to the hold short position. It took 6-7 minutes + 3 "Ready for takeoff" from #1 before we got clearance. Before the clearance was allowed, I positioned my a/c almost beside #1 , on the right side..maybe that triggered the clearance, maybe not. Yesterday I had to wait for 5+ minutes on max time compression..so this is a difference.

oh, another thing. I engaged auto-pilot after takeoff and it flew right up the a$$ of #1..

Hi again bb5000,

I just flew misison#3 several times and i think i have figured out the issue. I think the AI is very sensitive to the the position of the player's aircraft at the threshold.

When the autopilot (AP) flies the mission it works fine (as you discovered and i just replicated) when the player's a/c (#2) is parked at the #1's 4 O'clock position within 1 - 2 wingspans and still on the runway.

When i hand fly the mission and repeat the above (ie i position my aircraft in the same-ish position) it all works flawlessly.

But if i repeat the mission and position myself on the port side of #1 at the 8 O'clock position then the other aircraft in the flight dont get into position (probably because i'm filling up #3's spot and its not smart enough to move across to my vacant #2 position) and they just sit there doing nothing other than burning fuel.

When i was building these missions i played them so much on autopilot i knew where to go when i hand flew it and it all worked. But i didnt think to check what would happen if i parked on the other side. So a good learning point for me when building missions.

The fix: I suspect it will be easier in the near term to put some instructions into the mission brief to ensure the players are in the correct position for take-off as it might take some time for the coders to figure out the AI re taxying. And because there's a reasonable work-around (ie get into the right spot and/or just use autopilot for take off) it may not a high priority to fix the AI in the near term.

So the last mission in the campaign has you back flying as a wingman again so if you havent flown it yet I'd be interested to hear if you can get it to work by placing your aircraft in your #1's 4 O'clock position at the threshold and be on the runway and within 1 - 2 wingspans. Make sure you check your 6 on this mission...

Thanks again for the feedback and I'll update the mission briefing to highlight what we've discovered re the AI and take-off procedures.

Ezzie

[bb5000]

Hi again bb5000,

I just flew misison#3 several times and i think i have figured out the issue. I think the AI is very sensitive to the the position of the player's aircraft at the threshold.

When the autopilot (AP) flies the mission it works fine (as you discovered and i just replicated) when the player's a/c (#2) is parked at the #1's 4 O'clock position within 1 - 2 wingspans and still on the runway.

When i hand fly the mission and repeat the above (ie i position my aircraft in the same-ish position) it all works flawlessly.

But if i repeat the mission and position myself on the port side of #1 at the 8 O'clock position then the other aircraft in the flight dont get into position (probably because i'm filling up #3's spot and its not smart enough to move across to my vacant #2 position) and they just sit there doing nothing other than burning fuel.

When i was building these missions i played them so much on autopilot i knew where to go when i hand flew it and it all worked. But i didnt think to check what would happen if i parked on the other side. So a good learning point for me when building missions.

The fix: I suspect it will be easier in the near term to put some instructions into the mission brief to ensure the players are in the correct position for take-off as it might take some time for the coders to figure out the AI re taxying. And because there's a reasonable work-around (ie get into the right spot and/or just use autopilot for take off) it may not a high priority to fix the AI in the near term.

So the last mission in the campaign has you back flying as a wingman again so if you havent flown it yet I'd be interested to hear if you can get it to work by placing your aircraft in your #1's 4 O'clock position at the threshold and be on the runway and within 1 - 2 wingspans. Make sure you check your 6 on this mission...

Thanks again for the feedback and I'll update the mission briefing to highlight what we've discovered re the AI and take-off procedures.

Ezzie

Yup, that was my conclusion as well..in a later mission I saw that #3 had stopped taxiing, so I turned around and moved in front of #3 until he started moving. Once #3 was in pos, we got clearance. I’ve completed the Gladiator campaign now. Hard to fight with as the upper wing is obscuring the view , but fun !