Ju 88 Flap Operation, Animation Incorrect (and on the lates Indicators incorrect )

[ATAG_SKUD]

Current Ju 88 flap take off position isn't animated. External views only show fully retracted and fully extended.
Ju 88 had a take off position of 25 degrees.
Lever operation is not correct either. The lever was moved to the position desired slot and held until the yellow light came on for take-off or the green light came on for landing position or red light came on for retracted position. After each light came on the lever was returned to the 0 position in order to lock the position. Note: We currently have a hybrid panel modelled with levers from the late models and gear/flap indicators from the early models. Nevertheless ]the early models had position indicators instead of lights but operated the same way.
Also, if the aircraft exceeded the maximum speed, the flaps would automatically retract.
BoX animation and lever movement are spot-on from what I have read.
Oh and one more thing, there was an interlock that prevented you from unlocking the tailwheel while the flaps were extended. Eric Brown describes the take off process. get in take of position on the runway lock the tailwheel (foot pedal in front of the right rudder pedal) and extend the flaps to the take off position.
The Ju 88 was a pilots plane. Made to be idiot proof. (That's why I like it )
Or you can try to decipher the poor translation in this
http://www.allworldwars.com/Ju-88-Fl...ns-Manual.html
or this
https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2020/0...-ju-88-series/

skud
Ju88 flaps layout lever.jpgClod 88 flaps.JPGClod 88 flaps8.JPGClod 88 flaps3.JPGClod 88 flaps5.JPGClod 88 flaps9.JPGClod 88 flaps10.JPG2091114133_winkle4.thumb.jpg.599d0545408fbbc1e23d3d34b52e4209.jpgwinkle.thumb.jpg.0726c217f6750e64609f68066778fa37.jpg

[von Graf]

I have a question to the Ju-88. Is there visual feedback in the game for the pilot when making the bombs 'sharp'? A light, switch, or lever maybe? Or is it possible to have an entry in a HUD window for that?
Problem is, my bombs do not explode in the Ju-88 A1 and how can I see if they're perhaps still secured/'unsharp' or not? I have a key assigned for that but it doesn't seem to work.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

GREAT BATTLES version is a late model A-4 with Jumo 211J with intercoolers.... early models had the Jumo 211D or G, which were functionally same as 211 engines in A-1. Overall BoX version quite different in many areas from A-5's in CLIFFS and TOBRUK.

We are aware of the auto retract on the Ju-88... also aware of it on the Martlet.

At the moment this function is not possible in the game code.... we hope to add it when we have time.

Re. the flap position, flaps should go through all the positions... we will look at it. I am not sure current code can replicate a rocker style system, (where the lever is spring loaded and goes back to zero when released) when the lever is pushed up, and a non-rocker style position when pulled back... either the system is slider or rocker. Also not sure your comments re. rocker are correct.

Flap Lever position we inherited from original game... we will look to see if it is incorrect, if so we can change it in the future.

Please note: The late versions of the A-5 had many of the elements of the A-4... including the pitch systems and flaps.... they differed in having the old MG-15's for defense instead of MG-81's as well as Jumo 211F, as well as elements from the A-1.

Current Ju 88 flap take off position isn't animated. External views only show fully retracted and fully extended.
Ju 88 had a take off position of 25 degrees.
Lever operation is not correct either. The lever was moved to the position desired slot and held until the yellow light came on for take-off or the green light came on for landing position or red light came on for retracted position. After each light came on the lever was returned to the 0 position in order to lock the position. Note: We currently have a hybrid panel modelled with levers from the late models and gear/flap indicators from the early models. Nevertheless ]the early models had position indicators instead of lights but operated the same way.
Also, if the aircraft exceeded the maximum speed, the flaps would automatically retract.
BoX animation and lever movement are spot-on from what I have read.
Oh and one more thing, there was an interlock that prevented you from unlocking the tailwheel while the flaps were extended. Eric Brown describes the take off process. get in take of position on the runway lock the tailwheel (foot pedal in front of the right rudder pedal) and extend the flaps to the take off position.
The Ju 88 was a pilots plane. Made to be idiot proof. (That's why I like it )
Or you can try to decipher the poor translation in this
http://www.allworldwars.com/Ju-88-Fl...ns-Manual.html
or this
https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2020/0...-ju-88-series/

skud
Ju88 flaps layout lever.jpgClod 88 flaps.JPGClod 88 flaps8.JPGClod 88 flaps3.JPGClod 88 flaps5.JPGClod 88 flaps9.JPGClod 88 flaps10.JPG2091114133_winkle4.thumb.jpg.599d0545408fbbc1e23d3d34b52e4209.jpgwinkle.thumb.jpg.0726c217f6750e64609f68066778fa37.jpg

[1lokos]

Flap Lever position we inherited from original game... we will look to see if it is incorrect, if so we can change it in the future.

JU 88 flaps has 4 positions UP - NEUTRAL - TAKEOFF - LANDING.

Game controls has only 3 positions UP - NEUTRAL - DOWN

This result in the follow animation in Ju 88, starting with flaps raised.

NEUTRAL - in cockpit game in NEUTRAL position - CORRECT
DOWN - in cockpit lever animation in TAKEOFF position - CORRECT, but flaps are now full down, not in 25º
UP - in cockpit lever animation in LANDING position - WRONG, at least should ignore this position and return to UP
UP - this time in cockpit lever animation in UP positions



Bomb selector in Blenheim, Ju 88 He 11, ju 87 toot suffer from this commands limitations.

In He 111 lamps are lit in bomb selector - out synchronize, in Ju 88 no.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

We are aware... there will be a temporary fix put in place so the positions shown are correctly modeled in the next patch. (early September)

In the future, we will need to introduce code changes to get the flaps to stop in the correct position.

JU 88 flaps has 4 positions UP - NEUTRAL - TAKEOFF - LANDING.

Game controls has only 3 positions UP - NEUTRAL - DOWN

This result in the follow animation in Ju 88, starting with flaps raised.

NEUTRAL - in cockpit game in NEUTRAL position - CORRECT
DOWN - in cockpit lever animation in TAKEOFF position - CORRECT, but flaps are now full down, not in 25º
UP - in cockpit lever animation in LANDING position - WRONG, at least should ignore this position and return to UP
UP - this time in cockpit lever animation in UP positions



Bomb selector in Blenheim, Ju 88 He 11, ju 87 toot suffer from this commands limitations.

[ATAG_SKUD]

GREAT BATTLES version is a late model A-4 with Jumo 211J with intercoolers.... early models had the Jumo 211D or G, which were functionally same as 211 engines in A-1. Overall BoX version quite different in many areas from A-5's in CLIFFS and TOBRUK.

We are aware of the auto retract on the Ju-88... also aware of it on the Martlet.

At the moment this function is not possible in the game code.... we hope to add it when we have time.

Re. the flap position, flaps should go through all the positions... we will look at it. I am not sure current code can replicate a rocker style system, (where the lever is spring loaded and goes back to zero when released) when the lever is pushed up, and a non-rocker style position when pulled back... either the system is slider or rocker. Also not sure your comments re. rocker are correct.

Flap Lever position we inherited from original game... we will look to see if it is incorrect, if so we can change it in the future.

Please note: The late versions of the A-5 had many of the elements of the A-4... including the pitch systems and flaps.... they differed in having the old MG-15's for defense instead of MG-81's as well as Jumo 211F, as well as elements from the A-1.

Thanks Buzz,
I realize you guys inherited a lot of this. I also know it's tough doing all this research especially when its in German and not always clear. Not trying to be a pain the butt, just trying to help out. With respect to the lever movement, you could cheat like BoX does and leave the coded control action toggle increase/decrease and just animate the lever returning to the zero position when the flap has reached its position- it works fine. I think despite the external animation not showing the take-off position I think the flight model is sensing it. Let me know which comments you think might not be correct and I'll dig deeper into it. Some of these things can be interpreted in different ways. The guys with the A1 in Norway have been very helpful.

skud
Late edit:flap control mapping.JPG
I assumed that the flap mapping toggled increase/decrease. Maybe my assumption was incorrect does CloD only allow 2-position flap operation?

[ATAG_SKUD]

I have a question to the Ju-88. Is there visual feedback in the game for the pilot when making the bombs 'sharp'? A light, switch, or lever maybe? Or is it possible to have an entry in a HUD window for that?
Problem is, my bombs do not explode in the Ju-88 A1 and how can I see if they're perhaps still secured/'unsharp' or not? I have a key assigned for that but it doesn't seem to work.

If you are bombing at low altitude you need to select the low altitude fusing in the weapons loadout. The bombs have to be armed by mapping a button to "Arm Bombs" or use the keyboard. The HUD will tell you when bombs are armed. Also, there is a minimum height I believe that you can drop even with low alt fuses. But at 25m or more they should go off with proper fuses.

skud

fuzes.jpg

[ATAG_Noofy]

I have a question to the Ju-88. Is there visual feedback in the game for the pilot when making the bombs 'sharp'? A light, switch, or lever maybe? Or is it possible to have an entry in a HUD window for that?
Problem is, my bombs do not explode in the Ju-88 A1 and how can I see if they're perhaps still secured/'unsharp' or not? I have a key assigned for that but it doesn't seem to work.

I assume you armed your bombs, opened your bay doors, and set to appropriate mode single, salvo, or series, and for the latter selected the desired number of bombs to drop.
One possible reason for bombs not exploding is if you have the wrong fuzes. For example you have high altitude fuze and dropping from low altitude. I always use low alt fuzes, with delay set at 8 seconds (in game it says 0.08 seconds but that is a typo).
If you are on auto-pilot you can jump into the ventral gunner position and watch your bombs drop and explode, hopefully on target if bombsight parameters were set correctly.

EDIT: just saw that SKUD already answered that. Should have refreshed my page before replying...

[1lokos]

Late edit:flap control mapping.JPG
I assumed that the flap mapping toggled increase/decrease. Maybe my assumption was incorrect does CloD only allow 2-position flap operation?

Clod controls for flaps (and landing gear) operation allow 3 positions (Up-Neutral-Down) commands, being the first to respond to toggle or decrease key/button, the Neutral position. *

Use increase and decrease commands don't solve Ju 88 flaps operation, both result in Neutral-Down-Up and Up again.


* This logic result weird in Hurricane, if you use the lever for landing gear control and after leave in Neutral position, when use for flaps operation press decrease key/button result in Neutral in HUD, requiring press again for flaps start moving.

Clod controls logic is basically leftover of IL-2:'46, the only improvement is allow controls in both directions, e.g. Magnetos 0 > 1 > 2 and the go back for 2. In '46 due lack of this two way, the "blessed' P-38 flaps are 0, 1, 2...9, C, A, rinse and repeat.

[RAF74_Buzzsaw]

Maybe my assumption was incorrect does CloD only allow 2-position flap operation?

No, using 'Neutral' after 'Down', you can stop the flaps deploying... stop them in any position.

Also, those aircraft which have 'Rocker' style flaps, (like the Wellington, 109E's, etc.) can stop the flap deployment at any point by releasing the 'Down' command.

What is not a Flap command option is a single command to send the flaps to a position other than fully down.

What we will need to code is a Flap system which allows dual down positions... 'Down 1' and 'Down 2'... with the 1 position being what ever was normally used for takeoff, and 2 position being fully down.

[tgif]

I was wondering what does Neutral flaps mean i never use it or knowingly fly with it set in that position i kind of imagined the flaps were just sort of flapping around loose if i had it set there , I know this is not right but I cant see the flaps position from any where so I can only go by the lever , the verbage I see when i move it or vibration and slowness if I forget to hit flaps twice to bring them up what is neutral ? from that discussion it sounds like if I hit neutral it means they stop raising or lowering and stay in the position I hit at. It seems odd that it was built with so little info for the pilot for an important setting . I think a cessna gives me more info about flaps position than the main bomber for a major airforce.
If it is just about limits of the computer codes to show something that is understandable but it seems like it was designed in an odd way when it was made . are there other planes with a Nutral position etc i dont have a good feel for what it means


TGIF

[Josef]

I was wondering what does Neutral flaps mean i never use it or knowingly fly with it set in that position i kind of imagined the flaps were just sort of flapping around loose if i had it set there , I know this is not right but I cant see the flaps position from any where so I can only go by the lever , the verbage I see when i move it or vibration and slowness if I forget to hit flaps twice to bring them up what is neutral ? from that discussion it sounds like if I hit neutral it means they stop raising or lowering and stay in the position I hit at. It seems odd that it was built with so little info for the pilot for an important setting . I think a cessna gives me more info about flaps position than the main bomber for a major airforce.
If it is just about limits of the computer codes to show something that is understandable but it seems like it was designed in an odd way when it was made . are there other planes with a Nutral position etc i dont have a good feel for what it means

Hi tgif,

yes, there are more planes with this up - neutral - down system. I'm still relatively new and don't know all the Blitz and Tobruk planes yet but from those I have tried, all Hurricanes have this system for flaps and even for a landing gear too. And I think also Bf 109's have this system for their landing gear.

I assume the neutral position simply stops motors of whatever that moves flaps, landing gear, etc. There is no danger when you don't use it (when you don't go back to the neutral position after you have extended or retracted your flaps) in the sim. It is different in real life though. If you don't go back to the neutral position, you can damage or destroy the motors because they will still try to move the flaps when they are in their limit position. This is not simulated in the game as far as I know.

As for the information about the position of flaps, there are indicators showing the current flap position in many planes.

I hope someone more competent will correct me if I'm wrong in something.

Josef

[1lokos]

I assume the neutral position simply stops motors of whatever that moves flaps, landing gear, etc. There is no danger when you don't use it (when you don't go back to the neutral position after you have extended or retracted your flaps) in the sim. It is different in real life though. If you don't go back to the neutral position, you can damage or destroy the motors because they will still try to move the flaps when they are in their limit position. This is not simulated in the game as far as I know.

Yes, in CloD this "Neutral" position add nothing practical, besides the animation don't follow the cockpit lever position, e.g. Hurricane lever in Neutral goes for Neutral again before move, and are no penalty for leave the lever out of Neutral position - in DCS MiG-21 you end without compressed air and can't brake in landing.

So is practical use a keymapper (JoyToKey, Joystick Gremlin, XPadder) and create a Up-Down position only.

[ATAG_Noofy]

The four positions for the flaps are (were in RL):

1: Landekl (landing) position 50 degrees deflection.
2: 0 position - take off 25 degrees deflection.
3&4: The flaps are in the neutral (up) position at the top and bottom selections

[tgif]

Hi tgif,

yes, there are more planes with this up - neutral - down system. I'm still relatively new and don't know all the Blitz and Tobruk planes yet but from those I have tried, all Hurricanes have this system for flaps and even for a landing gear too. And I think also Bf 109's have this system for their landing gear.

I assume the neutral position simply stops motors of whatever that moves flaps, landing gear, etc. There is no danger when you don't use it (when you don't go back to the neutral position after you have extended or retracted your flaps) in the sim. It is different in real life though. If you don't go back to the neutral position, you can damage or destroy the motors because they will still try to move the flaps when they are in their limit position. This is not simulated in the game as far as I know.

As for the information about the position of flaps, there are indicators showing the current flap position in many planes.

I hope someone more competent will correct me if I'm wrong in something.

Josef

thanks that was
a good explanation for me

[ATAG_SKUD]

What we will need to code is a Flap system which allows dual down positions... 'Down 1' and 'Down 2'... with the 1 position being what ever was normally used for takeoff, and 2 position being fully down.

I like this solution. Probably works for other aircraft with a fixed intermediate take off position.

SKUD

[von Graf]

If you are bombing at low altitude you need to select the low altitude fusing in the weapons loadout. The bombs have to be armed by mapping a button to "Arm Bombs" or use the keyboard. The HUD will tell you when bombs are armed. Also, there is a minimum height I believe that you can drop even with low alt fuses. But at 25m or more they should go off with proper fuses.

skud

fuzes.jpg

Thank you.