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Thread: Game turning hakenkreuz into black snowflakes

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    Supporting Member IIJG27Rich's Avatar
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    Game turning hakenkreuz into black snowflakes

    The game is putting extra lines through the hakenkreuz how do you stop this? I can't take a screenshot because I'm asking for another player.
    Last edited by IIJG27Rich; Aug-29-2020 at 22:06.

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    Novice Pilot whurst1's Avatar
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    Re: Game turning hakenkreuz into black snowflakes

    I am sorry to hear this Rich. I think that corrupting the historical markings, that appear only on my computer, would kill it for me. I don't fly online, and use it only for my personal enjoyment. In my opinion our PC society has gone too far already. I hope that this is fixed soon.

    whurst1

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    Supporting Member IIJG27Rich's Avatar
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    Re: Game turning hakenkreuz into black snowflakes

    Quote Originally Posted by whurst1 View Post
    I am sorry to hear this Rich. I think that corrupting the historical markings, that appear only on my computer, would kill it for me. I don't fly online, and use it only for my personal enjoyment. In my opinion our PC society has gone too far already. I hope that this is fixed soon.

    whurst1

    I think I know what's going on. I found a screenshot in my files of a 109 with a cross on the vertical stabiliser. The game is putting one of these on. How to make it quit doing this I'll have to do more digging or maybe somebody will help......... hint hint

    Last edited by IIJG27Rich; Aug-30-2020 at 14:45.

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    Re: Game turning hakenkreuz into black snowflakes

    I've never had an issue flying without having political symbols slapped all over my plane.

    as far as it being a deal breaker?


    I really don't get it. if its deal breaker find somthing that isn't.




    in real life id take a 109 up as soon as a spit.

    But i'd want it clear of certain markings before i took control.
    personal choice in real life

    and I do understand the historical accuracy arguament. very much so.

    I just don't think its a particularly valid arguament in non historical today.


    this will rage on and on no doubt.


    but a deal breaker ?!

    haha!!

    Just play.


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    Re: Game turning hakenkreuz into black snowflakes

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Highseas View Post
    I've never had an issue flying without having political symbols slapped all over my plane.

    as far as it being a deal breaker?


    I really don't get it. if its deal breaker find somthing that isn't.




    in real life id take a 109 up as soon as a spit.

    But i'd want it clear of certain markings before i took control.
    personal choice in real life

    and I do understand the historical accuracy arguament. very much so.

    I just don't think its a particularly valid arguament in non historical today.


    this will rage on and on no doubt.


    but a deal breaker ?!

    haha!!

    Just play.


    'Seas
    Thank you Highseas, that was spot on.
    I have never understood this discussion, don’t know if that is a question of what generation you belong to?

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    varrattu
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    Re: Game turning hakenkreuz into black snowflakes

    Hello,

    to be clear: the history of the Hakenkreuz (hooked cross) doesn’t allow for much conversation about it's "historical importance" for a game. Because of its use by Nazi Germany, the Hakenkreuz is undoubtedly associated with Nazism. It stands for the Holocaust in Europe. To victims of Nazi Germany, it became a symbol of anti-Semitism and terror. In many Western countries, the Hakenkreuz is viewed as a symbol of racial supremacism and intimidation because of its association with Nazism.

    With the resurgent menace of Nazism in today’s nationalist movements, the hooked cross cannot be redeemed—at least not in games like this one.

    In contrast to the "Hakenkreuz" the "swastika" to this day is a sacred symbol in Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Odinism. It is a common sight on temples or houses in India or Indonesia. Swastikas also have an ancient history in Europe, appearing on artefacts from pre-Christian European cultures. One should not stop using the swastika as an auspicious symbol because some Westerners bastardized its design and twisted its meaning into one of hate, a Hakenkreuz (hooked cross).

    ~Varrattu~

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    Re: Game turning hakenkreuz into black snowflakes

    Quote Originally Posted by varrattu View Post
    Hello,

    to be clear: the history of the Hakenkreuz (hooked cross) doesn’t allow for much conversation about it's "historical importance" for a game. Because of its use by Nazi Germany, the Hakenkreuz is undoubtedly associated with Nazism. It stands for the Holocaust in Europe. To victims of Nazi Germany, it became a symbol of anti-Semitism and terror. In many Western countries, the Hakenkreuz is viewed as a symbol of racial supremacism and intimidation because of its association with Nazism.

    With the resurgent menace of Nazism in today’s nationalist movements, the hooked cross cannot be redeemed—at least not in games like this one.

    In contrast to the "Hakenkreuz" the "swastika" to this day is a sacred symbol in Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Odinism. It is a common sight on temples or houses in India or Indonesia. Swastikas also have an ancient history in Europe, appearing on artefacts from pre-Christian European cultures. One should not stop using the swastika as an auspicious symbol because some Westerners bastardized its design and twisted its meaning into one of hate, a Hakenkreuz (hooked cross).

    ~Varrattu~
    Yep.

    The peaceful loving swatsika i know of.

    And the hateful right wing i also know of.


    Neither significance is lost on me

    Very few people know both exist.

    Its definitely worth knowing both.

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    Re: Game turning hakenkreuz into black snowflakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Kayo View Post
    Thank you Highseas, that was spot on.
    I have never understood this discussion, don’t know if that is a question of what generation you belong to?

    Born 1972 English.

    Married a german woman also born 1972.

    Her father was 60 when she was born (what a legend!)

    His father was a decorated german ww1 officer. Jewish.. before that was a social stigma.


    With the excption of two the entire Marcus family was wiped out by the Nazis. Including Hans' father. Medals an so on from 22 years ago all forgotten.

    Hans made it to Nazi occupied netherlands and hid out in amsterdam. Survived thanks to a book seller named Magdellena

    And his cousin Marga. She lived in Golders Green.



    So yeah. Sort of a massive thing.

    Im staying outside kf giving my opinion as far as politics goes as per forum rules.

    This is just my own history.

    You can probably guess what I think though.


    'Seas.

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    Supporting Member IIJG27Rich's Avatar
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    Re: Game turning hakenkreuz into black snowflakes

    Well I don't want this to get into a classic BOS forum hulla balloo ....I guess the problem wasn't solved for us evil doers and the snowflake?
    Last edited by IIJG27Rich; Sep-18-2020 at 06:21.

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    Re: Game turning hakenkreuz into black snowflakes

    Quote Originally Posted by varrattu View Post
    Hello,

    to be clear: the history of the Hakenkreuz (hooked cross) doesn’t allow for much conversation about it's "historical importance" for a game. Because of its use by Nazi Germany, the Hakenkreuz is undoubtedly associated with Nazism. It stands for the Holocaust in Europe. To victims of Nazi Germany, it became a symbol of anti-Semitism and terror. In many Western countries, the Hakenkreuz is viewed as a symbol of racial supremacism and intimidation because of its association with Nazism.

    With the resurgent menace of Nazism in today’s nationalist movements, the hooked cross cannot be redeemed—at least not in games like this one.

    In contrast to the "Hakenkreuz" the "swastika" to this day is a sacred symbol in Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Odinism. It is a common sight on temples or houses in India or Indonesia. Swastikas also have an ancient history in Europe, appearing on artefacts from pre-Christian European cultures. One should not stop using the swastika as an auspicious symbol because some Westerners bastardized its design and twisted its meaning into one of hate, a Hakenkreuz (hooked cross).

    ~Varrattu~
    Say what you want, and feel what you want; but at the end of a day it's a few lines bent into a shape. A shape, a symbol, cannot in itself hurt anyone.

    There are plenty of religious symbols that are just as offensive to me, and one could argue are responsible for just as many deaths and injustices.

    The mentality of banning things because it may hurt someone's feelings is cowardly, misguided, and lazy.

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    Re: Game turning hakenkreuz into black snowflakes

    And, it is impossible to make everyone happy.

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    Re: Game turning hakenkreuz into black snowflakes

    Quote Originally Posted by III./ZG76_Keller View Post
    ...

    The mentality of banning things because it may hurt someone's feelings is cowardly, misguided, and lazy.
    But it's not about that (hurt feelings) with a hakenkreuz ban is it? It's banned in places because it was and is still a symbol of Nazism, and it is the people today who still use it as such who are to blame for the continuing ban by perpetuating its use as a symbol of genocide/racism etc. If the modern day Nazis who use it, simply dropped it and just aired their opinions without having to link back to it, then maybe it would be able to fade into just being sticks again and they could plant flowers in their gardens to grow into arrangements the shape of a Swastika as much as they wish and everyone else would just see it as a sacred peace symbol again.
    I am Yo-Yo not YoYo (that's someone else)

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    Re: Game turning hakenkreuz into black snowflakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Yo-Yo View Post
    But it's not about that (hurt feelings) with a hakenkreuz ban is it? It's banned in places because it was and is still a symbol of Nazism, and it is the people today who still use it as such who are to blame for the continuing ban by perpetuating its use as a symbol of genocide/racism etc. If the modern day Nazis who use it, simply dropped it and just aired their opinions without having to link back to it, then maybe it would be able to fade into just being sticks again and they could plant flowers in their gardens to grow into arrangements the shape of a Swastika as much as they wish and everyone else would just see it as a sacred peace symbol again.
    If there's a Nazi, a Communist, an ANTIFA, living in my neighborhood; I'd rather know about it than have them keep it hidden.

    Banning symbols of hate is a precursor to banning speech. Here in Canada you can already find yourself in trouble if you don't use the right pronoun for a person that identifies as something a-typical.

    I don't want to live like that; I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees.

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    Re: Game turning hakenkreuz into black snowflakes

    Hundreds of thousands of women were executed for being witches over thousands of years by organizations who's symbol, the crucifix, was used to identify the group.

    How is that still ok?
    Last edited by III./ZG76_Keller; Sep-18-2020 at 11:45.

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    Re: Game turning hakenkreuz into black snowflakes

    Aaaahh ok.
    I am Yo-Yo not YoYo (that's someone else)

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    Re: Game turning hakenkreuz into black snowflakes

    Pretty sure the answer is simple. Symbol is banned in certain regions, so it can't be in the game. Simple as that.

    You want a custom skin with the swastika? You can do that. But it won't be something ever officially supported in the game.

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    Supporting Member Blade_Meister's Avatar
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    Re: Game turning hakenkreuz into black snowflakes

    It is called censorship and when you live in a the USA you are guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States of America to have freedom of speech and freedom of the press, and yes as a citizen of the USA I do have a say in this matter seeing as this country played a great role in helping to win World War II alongside the Great nations of Britain, Russia and all of the other Allied Countries that sacrificed its' people and resources. There is no reason that people in any country in the world should stick their head in the sand in this day and age and say to the rest of the world, 'we cannot look at this evil symbol, so neither should anyone else.' History has to be remembered in all of its' exacting details or else the lessons learned from it will soon be forgotten. Naivety and turning ones attention away from the elephant in the room is exactly how Germany and Hitler built the strength of the mighteist armed forces in the world under the supposed security of The Treaty of Versailles and started World War II. Naivety and turning ones attention away from the elephant in the room is exactly how Hitler, his Commanders and much of the German people allowed the creation of the forced labor camps and carried out the Holocaust. Should these elements of history also be censored? Chosen ignorance to portions of history, the hakenkreuz in this case, does not change the history of what happened. The hakenkreuz is part of history from that time and it should not be forgotten or censored unless the country you live in has passed legislation making it illegal to display. Even then the people of these countries should not expect the rest of the world to ignore, censor and soon enough forget a key symbol which is part of the history of World War II. I do not personally like, promote or think that every person in the world should have to display, view or like the hakenkkreuz, but that does not mean that it should not be remembered and taught in history as the symbol of The National Socialist German Workers' Party and not be displayed on German machines of war in any form of literature or any form of media. I respect the differences with those opposed to displaying the hakenkreuz in any way, but that does not entitle you to question or pressure those that can and do accept that it is a part of history and that it should not be censored nor hidden away lest we forget those years of suffering and sacrifice only for them to visit us once again in this day and age. My 2 cents and of course, IMHO.

    I have one question for those whom do not like the swastika/hakenkreuz displayed on the tail of the German planes in CLOD or any other flight sim for that matter. Do you fly on the German side and pilot the German planes? If so, considering your opposition to the swastika/hakenkreuz being used in CLOD, how do you accept flying the same machines in game without the symbol to perpetrate the same violent acts that attempted to spread the Tyrannical goals of Hitler and the German nation under Nazism upon the other free nations of the world? That would seem to me to be the more unethical and disturbing issue versus the display of the swastica/hakenkrueus on Luftwaffe planes and German military equipment and uniforms?
    No attitude was attached to this response, please don't attach any of your own making. Thank you. Again, My 2 cents and of course, IMHO.

    One interesting note for those that think that governments that censor the swastika/hakenkreuz are staunch and steadfast in doing the right thing, Germany being one of them as I understand it. In 2007-2008 when MGM, a big movie production company, wanted to film the movie Valkyrie starring Tom Cruise, they knocked upon the German governments door to ask if they could build and film historically and period correct sets for some of the main scenes using the original buildings and locations in Berlin. Of course this would bring a lot of money to Berlin to pay for the rights and closures of locations and buildings in downtown Berlin, not to mention bolster the local economy with increased revenue when MGM brought in the actors, crews and hired locals to provide the labor required to build the sets and shoot the scenes needed for the movie. The German government was all to happy to take the money and at the same time allow the former Luftwaffe HQ building, then the Ministry of Finance, and Messe Hall(?) to be used and period decorated with many tall red Nazis banners and flags which included the swastika/hankenkreuz for the first time since the end of World War II, in spite of German law forbidding the display of the swastika/hakenkreuz in public places, literature or media. A few local Berliners whom were walking past the set were asked in a documentary segment what their reaction was upon seeing the flags and banners decorating the sets. They expressed shock(honestly, they appeared at a loss for words) and wanted to know what was happening as they knew this was illegal according to German law. It seems, in this case anyway, that money trumped Germany's desire to never again allow the display of the swastika/hakenkreuz on its' soil with the government's or the German peoples good graces, even for a movie. Anyway, I found it interesting that the German government allowed this production to take place.

    S!Blade<><

    Edit: No disrespect to TFS or 1C. I understand that under the current situation that as a business practice that the swastika/hakenkreus will not be officially supported or included in its' products. That is not what I am addressing here.
    Last edited by Blade_Meister; Sep-18-2020 at 15:25.

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    Re: Game turning hakenkreuz into black snowflakes

    The fact remains that the Swastika was a part of the history of the Third Reich so MUST be portrayed for historical accuracy, period!
    This is the same as BLM tearing down statues of so called Slave traders from 300 years ago, you cant change the history but by erasing all signs of its existence means lessons can not be learnt by future generations
    There doesn't seem to be any objection to the Red Star or the Hammer and Sickle and yet more people suffered and died under those symbols than the Swastika right up to the end of Soviet rule in the 80s.
    Don't get Me wrong they are both evil Regime's and that's the point, but because one of them just happened to be an ally at the time all its
    despicable acts are overlooked and brushed under the carpet also there are probably Millions of poor folk who were oppressed in the occupied Eastern Block that may be offended by Soviet symbols But they are not banned.
    Who is this offending anyway? the sort of people playing these games have an interest in the subject and know there is going to be symbols from this era and if You are offended DONT play it and stop spoiling it
    for those of us that do want an accurate depiction.
    Some lefties want the Cross of St. George the National flag of England banned because a few Skinheads have been seen carrying it so of course this is now seen as a Nazi symbol, where does this Culture of offence stop?
    In most games now there are menu's to customise the content so why don't they have an option to Disable the Swastika so you don't have to see it rather than a Blanket Ban?
    I did find this on You tube which I hope is correct and that the German censorship of the Swastika in games has been Relaxed.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR5DzXxR80o
    Last edited by KeefyBoy; Sep-19-2020 at 20:59.

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    Re: Game turning hakenkreuz into black snowflakes

    Not this tripe again.

    Time for some simple points. They're not aimed at anybody particular; they just address what I see as the most common arguments:

    1 - The inclusion or exclusion of a political symbol is irrelevant to your ability to play a game.

    2a - The developers and publishers say no Hakenreuz. That's the long and the short of your answer.

    2b - We don't care about your local legal rights and opinions on free speech. We don't all live in your country. Different places have different rules and different people with different values that also need to be considered.

    2c - Free Speech is not the right to say as you please and it is not freedom from consequences. Even the famous First Amendment of the US Constitution does not give a carte blanche to any and all "free speech".

    3 - Arguments justifying the Hakenreuz as necessary for "Historical accuracy" are facile and misguided. You're playing a computer game; you're not a WW2 fighter pilot in a life or death struggle on behalf of your nation. There is a whole lot else that would be more pertinent to address in the mythical quest for "historical correctness" than worrying about an omission to your virtual paint job.

    4 - The Hakenkreuz / Swastika was used as a symbol for a hateful fascist regime that perpetrated terrible crimes. It is still used as a hate symbol and is still used to offend and oppress. Current hate groups identify with and use the symbol. This is why it is banned. Other symbols, their history and usage and arguments about their relative merits are irrelevant. The Hakenkreuz is internationally viewed as an unacceptable symbol of hate.

    5 - Being ignorant, either wilfully or otherwise, of how a symbol can upset people is not a justification for its use in a public manner. Besides, those who make the most noise about "political correctness" and "other people's feelings" are usually the ones that are most easily upset and likely to demand others respect THEIR feelings. Go figure.


    Edit to add:

    I have no personal issue with seeing the Hakenkreuz used in a correct historical context. However there are plenty of people, groups and even nations that beg to differ about the acceptability of its usage and regardless of our personal thoguhts, these are the people that a decent society should consider. This and the above are reasons why it is, and will likely always continue to be deemed unacceptable for use here in Cliffs of Dover and that game developers will be unlikely to empower people to be able to use the symbole in a game.
    Last edited by Pans; Sep-19-2020 at 21:10.

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    Re: Game turning hakenkreuz into black snowflakes

    Some very detailed and differing points of views have been expressed here which are all relevant to the political issues surrounding the era depicted in this simulation. As others have pointed out, we have constraints placed upon us due to the global nature of this game’s distribution.

    In keeping with this forum’s policy of avoiding discussions involving politics, this thread is now closed. Thanks to everyone here for contributing.

    Cheers to all except those who kept shooting me down during last night’s “Macchi Mayhem”.

    Last edited by ATAG_Snapper; Sep-20-2020 at 03:35. Reason: Madness? Mayhem? Whatev. It was a ton of fun!


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