Is there a way to increase LOD?

[ATAG_SKUD]

Noofy and I were flying this weekend. He has 2k monitor and I have 4K monitor. He was seeing ships fully rendered a full 2 minutes before I saw them. When they did finally render as ships they popped in huge at about 3 km distance. I have older but still worthy Titan xp and have tons on headroom on the GPU in this game. I've never seen the slightest stutter. Can you give us the option of increasing LOD distance?

skud

Edit: I have all the settings maxed out.

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

I think I may have the same problem. Just the others in 1080p see before me as I am running 1440p.

The render bubble is also very noticeable, with buildings and LODs popping up when fully zoomed in but not visible or just as a very (very) faint dot when not.

[ATAG_Colander]

Sure....


LOD

[Erpr.Gr.210_Mölders]

Actually in 4K the max visual range is about 5 km from the center of your aircraft. The only solution to increase the visual range is to lower the screen resolution.

As quick/simple reference these are pretty much the visual range values:

HD ( 1920x1080 at 60 or 120 Hz ) = 12 Km max

2K ( 2560x1440 at 60 Hz ) = 7 Km max

4K ( 4096x2160 or 3840x2160 at 60 Hz ) = 5 Km max

Important for the 4K: Disable any anisotropic or antialiasing filter you may have activated. Both almost useless at this resolution and your spoting capabilities will improve a fraction ( but not the max visual range ). Use frequently the zoom in to scan the section of sky of interest. If using the FXAA ( My suggestion is to disable it in 4K ) select instead SMAA and colour --> Ultra if your PC can run it.
In the Nvidia control panel set the Low Latency Mode on " ON ".

[Erpr.Gr.210_Mölders]

Sure....


LOD

LOD + KKKK resolution

[ATAG_SKUD]

Actually in 4K the max visual range is about 5 km from the center of your aircraft. The only solution to increase the visual range is to lower the screen resolution.

As quick/simple reference these are pretty much the visual range values:

HD ( 1920x1080 at 60 or 120 Hz ) = 12 Km max

2K ( 2560x1440 at 60 Hz ) = 7 Km max

4K ( 4096x2160 or 3840x2160 at 60 Hz ) = 5 Km max

Important for the 4K: Disable any anisotropic or antialiasing filter you may have activated. Both almost useless at this resolution and your spoting capabilities will improve a fraction ( but not the max visual range ). Use frequently the zoom in to scan the section of sky of interest. If using the FXAA ( My suggestion is to disable it in 4K ) select instead SMAA and colour --> Ultra if your PC can run it.
In the Nvidia control panel set the Low Latency Mode on " ON ".

Thanks
Could you give me a brief technical explanation on why the rendering distances are reduced for the higher resolution monitors? Can anything be done on the game side to even the playing field or are we stuck with this forever? Also, what kind of issue would we be up against if the rendering limit was increased to 15 Km in 4k?

skud

[ATAG_Colander]

Thanks
Could you give me a brief technical explanation on why the rendering distances are reduced for the higher resolution monitors? Can anything be done on the game side to even the playing field or are we stuck with this forever? Also, what kind of issue would we be up against if the rendering limit was increased to 15 Km in 4k?

skud

Is not that the game changes the viewing distance with the resolution, is that when far a plane is basically a single dot/pixel which is easier to see if the resolution is lower as the pixel size in the monitor is bigger.
To counter this, this single pixel would need to be rendered as 2, 4, 6 etc pixels depending on your resolution but currently is not the case.

[ATAG_SKUD]

Is not that the game changes the viewing distance with the resolution, is that when far a plane is basically a single dot/pixel which is easier to see if the resolution is lower as the pixel size in the monitor is bigger.
To counter this, this single pixel would need to be rendered as 2, 4, 6 etc pixels depending on your resolution but currently is not the case.

Thanks Colander
I think what you are speaking about is aircraft. I can see other aircraft OK, it's better in DWT than BoX. Its the ground objects like ships and hangers that render late for 4K resolutions. There is definitely a difference in when they pop in 1080 vs. 4k. When they finally render in 4k they pop in big going from invisible to huge in an instant.

skud

[ATAG_Noofy]

The planes, ships, and ground objects should "render" (i.e. popup in full shape) at the same distance regardless of your monitor resolution, with potential differences due to lag, ping, server overload over a given region, etc.

But you first spot the objects before they render, and they show up as a single pixel. That’s what Colander is referring to. This first pixel appears at the same distance regardless of your resolution, however the higher the resolution, the smaller that first pixel is (after all more resolution = more pixels per square inch => smaller pixels), and therefore you cannot see it even though it is there. The only way would be to render several pixels (x4, x8, x16) so people with higher resolutions see them better, but this is probably technically very challenging... The planes you see better because you always see a moving pixel better than a still one.

I don’t know if you can make that first pixel more visible by increasing the contrast or something...

That flight we did together the other day over the ships, what I could see way before you were those first pixels, not the ships themselves. To me too the full ships popped up later, but I knew what they were because I was expecting them to be there...

And in TFS5.0 you can see the objects from a much greater distance if you fully zoom in... with the increased difficulty of aiming at the correct spot of course.

[ATAG_SKUD]

Thanks Noofy and Colander.
I thought they were rendering to full ships when you called them out. I'm never going to see single pixel in 4K. So if everyone gets the full ship rendering at the same distance, what would be the impact of moving that distance out say 2 or 3 times what it is now?

skud

[9./JG52_J-HAT]

Yes, increase the render bubble!
Maybe to what it is already when you are fully zoomed in.

And if possible, make the render distance configurable under options so people with not so powerful PCs can reduce it to increase performance.

[ATAG_Noofy]

... what would be the impact of moving that distance out say 2 or 3 times what it is now?

I am not sure. I assume the more objects you have visibility of, the bigger the impact on the frame rate? This is why people uncheck the far clouds, far shadows, etc.

Also rendering from a higher distance would make it less challenging...

I think there is a way to increase that sight distance in SP mode, but in MP mode this is forced by the server / mission maker.

Search for threads discussing "mp_dotrange"...

[ATAG_SKUD]

I am not sure. I assume the more objects you have visibility of, the bigger the impact on the frame rate? This is why people uncheck the far clouds, far shadows, etc.

Also rendering from a higher distance would make it less challenging...

I think there is a way to increase that sight distance in SP mode, but in MP mode this is forced by the server / mission maker.

Search for threads discussing "mp_dotrange"...

This sim is rock solid on frame rate. I have no problem with everything maxed out and in 4k. I think there's lots of room to blow up the bubble

How about an option for players to choose their bubble size? Seems to me in my foggy recollection we used to have options for how far out trees, buildings and such would render. Or maybe that was BoX.
I guess MP_dotrange is a server parameter?

skud

[Erpr.Gr.210_Mölders]

Is not that the game changes the viewing distance with the resolution, is that when far a plane is basically a single dot/pixel which is easier to see if the resolution is lower as the pixel size in the monitor is bigger.
To counter this, this single pixel would need to be rendered as 2, 4, 6 etc pixels depending on your resolution but currently is not the case.

That is surely true but there's also another thing that seems to have a big impact for the visibility distance. CloD seems to use some kind of visual bubble around the aircraft ( starting from the aircraft center ) that should be something about 5 Km from the aircraft center.
This seems to have an effect also on the visibility distance of the aircraft.
At higher resolution ( 4K in particular ) the big problem is that, everything outside the 5 km rendering bubble is not rendered at all by the game.
To make a quick example ( in 4K ): At 5km you see the aircraft dot, at 5100 meters the dot completely vanish.
The rendering bubble around the aircraft seems to act ( or it seems to be used by the game ) like a sort of reversed multiplier. The lower you set the resolution, the better. The more you raise it, the opposite.

Some samples to give the idea:

HD ( 1920x1080 ): Rendering bubble 5 km : 12 Km max vis.range = Multiplier 2,4

2K ( 2560x1440 ): Rendering bubble 5 km : 7 Km max vis.range = Multiplier 1,4

4K ( 4096x2160 or 3840x2160 ): Rendering bublbe 5 km : 5 Km max vis.range = Multiplier 1

The lower the multiplier the lower the visibility distance. At 1:1 ( 4K res ) as said everything outside it is not rendered at all, it seems ( Done a lot of tests about it, I've got always the same results ) because the pixel becomes so small that is not rendered at all by the in-game engine. ( That was clearly not designed for 4K resolutions in origin )

Probably making some tests looking at what happens if increasing the rendering visual bubble could be worth the candle but finding the sweetspot will be surely a tricky thing to be obtained I presume...

-- End of my reply to Colander ---

To all: If we want to increase the visual distance for higher resolutions somehow the solution is not that easy. We can't simply raise the visibility distance for the 4K user only. Why?
Because the game, at least as far as I know, do not permits to increase one single value ( Let's say for exampple the 4K only ) and not the others. An eventual change done to one of them will affect all the other resolutions too. If you increase the visibility distance of the 4K res, for example of the exact double in respect to now, increasing it from 5km to 10 km you will have the perfect visibility distance ( or at least enough ) in 4K but applying the same to the other resolutions you will get:

HD ( 1920x1080 ): 12 Km max actual vis.range x 2 = 24 km ( Too much )

2K ( 2560x1440 ): 7 Km max actual vis.range x 2 = 14 km ( Still in range of something realistic )

At this point someone may say... " Ok but the only visibility distance that is too much is the one of the HD users ( 24 Km )...I prefer to have a correct visibility range in 2 and 4 K even if the one of the HD user is too much...In my opinion even if HD will have a clear advantage, this change it's worth the candle!... "

..but here there also another point to take into consideration before saying " Eureka! " I've found the final solution...or rather..

Actually the strain put on a HD computer ( Speaking of graphics ) is almost 1 quarter lower in respect to one in 4K for example, becuase the HD resolution is about 4 times lower in respect to the 4K one ( It's not exactly so but this sample is just to give the idea ).
So this means that doubling the visual range for any resolutions you will have also the double video card strain for HD users, two times more strain on 2K users graphics and 2 times more strain put on 4K users graphics... ( Again, it doesn't work exactly so, this is just to provide and example easy to be visualised in your minds )
We got already now lots of people reporting issues with stutters and graphic problems in HD and higher resolutions...What do you think will happen if we will aplly what's written above?

That's why it's not so easy solving this issue guys...

I hope even if it was a very brief description it was clear enough to highlight some of the issues that TFS may have to face...It's not always so easy as it seems to solve a problem, unfortunately...

Even guessing the perfect sweetspot for the 4K resolution ( in a imaginary feasible environment ) the lower resolutions will be always able to have a better visibility speaking of aircraft dots..it's something we can't change actually...In brief... We can't have the exact same visual range for all the resolutions....

[Tibsun]

To all: If we want to increase the visual distance for higher resolutions somehow the solution is not that easy. We can't simply raise the visibility distance for the 4K user only. Why?
Because the game, at least as far as I know, do not permits to increase one single value ( Let's say for exampple the 4K only ) and not the others. An eventual change done to one of them will affect all the other resolutions too. If you increase the visibility distance of the 4K res, for example of the exact double in respect to now, increasing it from 5km to 10 km you will have the perfect visibility distance ( or at least enough ) in 4K but applying the same to the other resolutions you will get:

Yes we could, if the LOD rendering can be increased at all and I tell you why.
Theres two renderings, 1st the full rendering with all the various LOD levels
and the 2nd with a dot, hence the mp_dotrange command which is set by the server if you haven't known that already.
The dot for the dot rendering is always a single till 4 pixels wide (atleast can be as big as two pixels I'm sure) and that pixel is darker in closer range and more transparent in further distance.

So if you could increase the LOD rendering, it would not overwrite the dot rendering

[ATAG_SKUD]

At this point someone may say... " Ok but the only visibility distance that is too much is the one of the HD users ( 24 Km )...I prefer to have a correct visibility range in 2 and 4 K even if the one of the HD user is too much...In my opinion even if HD will have a clear advantage, this change it's worth the candle!... "

..but here there also another point to take into consideration before saying " Eureka! " I've found the final solution...or rather..

Actually the strain put on a HD computer ( Speaking of graphics ) is almost 1 quarter lower in respect to one in 4K for example, becuase the HD resolution is about 4 times lower in respect to the 4K one ( It's not exactly so but this sample is just to give the idea ).
So this means that doubling the visual range for any resolutions you will have also the double video card strain for HD users, two times more strain on 2K users graphics and 2 times more strain put on 4K users graphics... ( Again, it doesn't work exactly so, this is just to provide and example easy to be visualised in your minds )
We got already now lots of people reporting issues with stutters and graphic problems in HD and higher resolutions...What do you think will happen if we will aplly what's written above?

IMHO I don't believe the FPS hit will be that bad. Without trying it of course, I can't say I know this for fact. However, there is little to render in this desolate environment. Is it the right choice to limit 4k users to an unrealistic 5km visibility bubble? Does TFS want to exclude those people? I have no problem with the fact that 1080p users can see farther than me. If I have 10k and they have 24 then fine. I can still see them and react in time. They still have to get to me. The main issue with the 5k render is you can forget about finding shipping convoys when you have to fly right over them to spot them.

skud

[Erpr.Gr.210_Mölders]

I'm pretty much on your same way of thinking. I do not think it will have a huge impact on my PC and I do not think that TFS is trying to exclude some players in respect to others.
At the moment I presume that, before taking care of these things, they are only busy with other stuffs more important or that require their attention first.
I'm pretty sure that in the future they will take a look at this but, in the meanwhile, on our side we need to let show up more people and let them participate to the discussion so we can have more feedbacks about this.
The more we will be, the more " our " requests/feedbacks could have the chamce to be considered, I presume.