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Thread: Ammo question to the experts

  1. #31
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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    My G50 has only two guns in the nose, so we don’t have that problem
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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by 1lokos View Post
    BTW - Spit/Hurri bad shooters (like me) can benefit in use this set at right, instead in insist in use an "historic" (or not) convergence blah-blah-blah:



    Notice that the settings help if fire at short distance than convergence, because bullets cross at half of convergence distance and in this case increase damage probability in one of enemy wing or in the two.

    My hit percentage with this planes increase after set in that way, as well fires caused in enemy planes.
    I'm just using 200/200 on all wing guns and 200/400 on all nose guns now - but over what range would one reccomend a "shotgun" type pattern like that on the right?

    Say I want it centred on 200. Should I put my outer guns at 195 and inner at 205, or is it more like 180 and 220?

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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by von Graf View Post
    I've set my guns in a similar way as depicted right. I checked the hits by a script I've got here and it's better for me now.

    And the visible crossing of the FF ammo in front of me did irritate me a lot first before you posted the drawing some days ago that explained this behaviour.
    You put more bullets in the target, but probably do not hit the vital spots as your bullets are more spread...
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  4. #34
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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    You put more bullets in the target, but probably do not hit the vital spots as your bullets are more spread...
    Yes. But at the moment I'm still happy to hit the plane itself at all because my rudder isn't working right.
    I'm playing with an old Saitek/twist rudder stick and have no issues in Il-2 BoX and DCS but in CloD I have no chance using rudder in combat. The slightest turn on the stick too much and the plane goes/jumps to the left/right like mad. I have the in-game damping on 1/ full. Even tried to set it on 2 or higher but that doesn't seem to work.
    I'll try/buy a different joystick soon, best one with two throttles for the Bf-110.

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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by von Graf View Post
    Yes. But at the moment I'm still happy to hit the plane itself at all because my rudder isn't working right.
    I'm playing with an old Saitek/twist rudder stick and have no issues in Il-2 BoX and DCS but in CloD I have no chance using rudder in combat. The slightest turn on the stick too much and the plane goes/jumps to the left/right like mad. I have the in-game damping on 1/ full. Even tried to set it on 2 or higher but that doesn't seem to work.
    I'll try/buy a different joystick soon, best one with two throttles for the Bf-110.
    I doubt it's any problem with your joystick because unfortunately, the rudder is the one part of the CLoD flight model which has never been right.

    You only have to input a moderate amount of rudder and suddenly the aircraft nose nods from side to side. It makes side-slipping difficult and stall turns (very easy in real life flying) impossible.

    I've raised this before but no-one seems bothered about it, which surprises me because I'm sure many real-life pilots fly this sim (although maybe only aerobatic pilots or those used to side-slipping in real life (I was a bush pilot when I was young and stupid) would be familiar with manoevers requiring significant rudder in flight).

    DCS models rudder use for propeller aircraft perfectly - try it and compare with CLoD!

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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by von Graf View Post
    Yes. But at the moment I'm still happy to hit the plane itself at all because my rudder isn't working right.
    I'm playing with an old Saitek/twist rudder stick and have no issues in Il-2 BoX and DCS but in CloD I have no chance using rudder in combat. The slightest turn on the stick too much and the plane goes/jumps to the left/right like mad. I have the in-game damping on 1/ full. Even tried to set it on 2 or higher but that doesn't seem to work.
    I'll try/buy a different joystick soon, best one with two throttles for the Bf-110.
    Try increasing your zero dead zone...
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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    Try increasing your zero dead zone...
    Yes, didn't help, that's the first I've tried. As I said, the slightest turn is too much. Almost like I'd use keystrokes as a rudder input. Zero or full. Almost.
    I have approx. one degree right and left (after the deadzone) for turning the stick; when more the plane is almost out of control immediately. In a quiet, relaxed flight it's possible for me to use the rudder very carefully but not in the hectic of combat when you want to correct your aim a bit.
    I tried a 'joycurve' software to test and edit the joysticks output curves but it couldn't get it to run together with CloD, the game didn't start anymore. But maybe I did something wrong, I've never used this tool before.
    What is strange that I can play with this old stick in every other flightsim. I've tested another joystick too, it was the same.
    Maybe there's a good flight stick that comes with a calibration tool for such issues (and a manual how to use it).
    Last edited by von Graf; Oct-23-2020 at 10:56.

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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by von Graf View Post
    I have the in-game damping on 1/ full. Even tried to set it on 2 or higher but that doesn't seem to work.
    When you have that controls slider "sensitivity" for left, the joystick input is send for game 1:1 - fast control

    Moving the slider for right you attenuate the input send for game, but only in middle of axis response, in the extreme is 1:1, the "S" curve.

    So up to ~60/70% of movement you have a more precise control, but a jump from 60/70 to 100%.

    JoyCurves and Joystick Gremlin allow adjust axis response like in DCS, decreasing the response across all curve (like the "saturation" in DCS), but both require the "dread" vJoy installed first.

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  11. #39
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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by 1lokos View Post
    When you have that controls slider "sensitivity" for left, the joystick input is send for game 1:1 - fast control

    Moving the slider for right you attenuate the input send for game, but only in middle of axis response, in the extreme is 1:1, the "S" curve.

    So up to ~60/70% of movement you have a more precise control, but a jump from 60/70 to 100%.

    JoyCurves and Joystick Gremlin allow adjust axis response like in DCS, decreasing the response across all curve (like the "saturation" in DCS), but both require the "dread" vJoy installed first.
    Ok, thanks. Then I'll try the JoyCurves again, the first time I had no luck with that, the game didn't start anymore.

    (I just asked you the same in the BoX forum, you can ignore it now.)

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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by carbolicus View Post
    I doubt it's any problem with your joystick because unfortunately, the rudder is the one part of the CLoD flight model which has never been right.

    You only have to input a moderate amount of rudder and suddenly the aircraft nose nods from side to side. It makes side-slipping difficult and stall turns (very easy in real life flying) impossible.

    I've raised this before but no-one seems bothered about it, which surprises me because I'm sure many real-life pilots fly this sim (although maybe only aerobatic pilots or those used to side-slipping in real life (I was a bush pilot when I was young and stupid) would be familiar with manoevers requiring significant rudder in flight).

    DCS models rudder use for propeller aircraft perfectly - try it and compare with CLoD!
    Yeah, I think I've read your post about the rudder and the plane's nose too some time ago.
    I have the WW2 aircrafts from DCS as well and the rudder is indeed much better. At the moment I can't play CloD in 'real' combat I'm just flying around, testing the missions/gameplay/etc. a bit. And I can shoot at bombers which don't move too much.

    Thanks for your info.

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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Interesting comments about the rudder.

    Look at this post over at the il-2 forums:

    https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic...y-in-this-sim/

    I’ve heard real pilots talking about this on TeamSpeak before.
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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Does anyone know what the default convergence settings in the game are for the 303 armed spittys and hurris
    Don't let Grudges fester and poison your future happiness......get your revenge as quickly as possible.

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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Seeing that so many real experts are around, it would be fantastic to put together some general info about the available ammo in game and add it to the flashcards (plus bombs and fuses).

    For new players this is rather confusing business and try and error quite cumbersome (especially because it is not possible to change settings easily in single polayer).

    I myself would love to know the differences between all those .50 shells and what would be reasonable loadouts.


    S!


    DerDa

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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_JackMaxx View Post
    Does anyone know what the default convergence settings in the game are for the 303 armed spittys and hurris
    338,328 meters = 370 yards

    It seems that this range was discovered by Luthier in some "sekrit dokument" in the KGB archives ... because not even Downding remember this distance in his memories:


    "A great deal of discussion took place before and in the early stages of the war as to the best method of harmonisation of the guns of an 8-gun fighter: that is to say the direction, in relation to the longitudinal axis of the aircraft, in which each gun should be pointed in order to get the best results.

    There were three schools of thought. One maintained that the lines of fire should be dispersed so that the largest possible “beaten zone” might be formed and one gun (but not more than one) would always be on the target. The second held that the guns should be left parallel and so would always cover an elongated zone corresponding with the vulnerable parts of a bomber (engines, tanks and fuselage). The third demanded concentration of the fire of all guns at a point.

    Arguments were produced in favour of all three methods of harmonisation, but in practice it was found that concentration of fire gave the best results. Guns were harmonised so that their lines of fire converged on a point 250 yards distant: fire was therefore effective up to about 500 yards, where the lines of fire had opened out again to their original intervals after crossing at the point of concentration."
    https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/thread...87/post-938165
    Sep 1938 - harmonised to a point 350 yards ahead --- 'concentrated pattern'
    c.Sep 1939 - harmonised to a large box pattern 400 yards ahead --- 'horizontal harmonization' (British Forces in France continued to harmonise to a point 350 to 150 yards ahead, depending on Squadron)
    c.Dec 1939 - two squadrons switch to a large circular pattern 200 and 400 yards ahead --- 'circular harmonization'
    Jan 1940 - ten squadrons switch to concentrated pattern
    Feb 1940 - full RAF switch to concentrated pattern
    Ah, being CloD "It's CloD", the default gunsight adjust (400 yards) don't match this default (370 yards) convergence range.
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    Last edited by 1lokos; Oct-23-2020 at 12:35.

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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Ah, yes the convergence and ammo loadout "Rabbit Hole" ....been there a few times.......one thing I would like to know for certain..... is the vertical convergence modeled in game? I have heard both sides of yes and no and tried it both ways.....now I just make it the same as horizontal and try to get as close as possible to shoot.
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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by 9./JG52_J-HAT View Post
    Interesting comments about the rudder.

    Look at this post over at the il-2 forums:

    https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic...y-in-this-sim/

    I’ve heard real pilots talking about this on TeamSpeak before.
    Von Graf and 9.JG2_J-HAT - Just had a quick look at that thread over on il2sturmovik.com - really pleased that the CLoD rudder issue is being debated over there.

    Perhaps it ought to be raised as a bug. Get the rudder part of the CLoD flight model sorted and it will finally be truly realistic!

    This great sim deserves it!

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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    ... is the vertical convergence modeled in game?
    Yes, vertical is modeled and is adjustable, in Options > Plane > Loadout > Guns.

    Want confirm?
    Select that dumb, useless "Heartbreak" Spitfire and set vertical convergence for weapons 1 and 8 at 1000.
    Fire and will see the this two MG bullets above the others.

    Vertical convergence.jpg

    The two adjusts - horizontal and vertical, allow create different patterns, if want.
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bzn...pSbmF4U1k/edit
    Last edited by 1lokos; Oct-23-2020 at 12:56.

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  25. #48
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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_JackMaxx View Post
    Does anyone know what the default convergence settings in the game are for the 303 armed spittys and hurris
    338 m for the Mk I and II.

    I believe 250 or 200 for the Mk. Va.

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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Flare View Post
    I believe 250 or 200 for the Mk. Va.

    Difficult to know, because tick the "Default Convergence" box in "Guns" is now bugged, don't show the value, and only partly write (MG 1) in User. ini without convergence reference.

    [tobruk:Aircraft.SpitfireMkVa]
    belt _Gun00 bob:Gun.Browning303MkII MainBelt 10 2 2 11 2 2 2 2
    weapons 1
    regiment BoB_RAF_B_218Sqn
    EDIT - Test with Varratu Target script, target at 270 meters show that Va convergence is longer.



    EDIT - My bad, I am look at target after the convergence.

    Seems 200 yards ~183 meters.

    BTW - Set unlimited ammo when use the Test script.
    Last edited by 1lokos; Oct-23-2020 at 14:22.

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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    Try increasing your zero dead zone...
    Never came on the idea to increase it to 80% (normally I have 5 or so) but it's really better now. Unbelievable.

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