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Thread: Ammo question to the experts

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    Ammo question to the experts

    Something has been bothering me lately.

    If I load my guns with a mix of different ammo types, say armor piercing and incendiary to keep it simple, the weight of the projectiles is not the same.

    This implies, in theory, that their trajectories and velocity would also be different.

    Is this assumption correct, and if so, does it mean that ammo of different types would never reach the same point of impact when mixed?

    In this case, does it make more sense to load the same type of ammo per gun, and adjust the vertical convergence to compensate for the difference in weight? For example, gun #1 loaded with Incendiary and a vertical convergence of say 300, and gun #2 loaded with AP and a vertical convergence of 400 (or whatever figures make sense)?
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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    To answer your question, I wanted to confirm that CLoD external ballistics is really that accurate so I planned to change total loadouts with different projectile types and compare the weights in game. However, the game is not available now due to a version update by STEAM.

    Weight test completed. See post#16, this thread...

    When you can finally get on a server that allows loadout changes, fill all guns with ball and note the airplane weight. Then change all projectiles to a different bullet, perhaps DeWilde incendiary. If the aircraft takeoff weight changes, it must be due to the ammo type. Otherwise, the question is moot since we must assume the game uses the same ballistics for all types of projectiles. (This may still be a faulty assumption since propellant weight is another unknown variable.)

    All this gobbledegook underscores what a bucket of worms you have opened. Here are some thoughts, though:

    Muzzle velocity for all types of bullets fire through the same barrel must logically be engineered to have the same muzzle velocity or else a rate of fire slow enough to assure bullet separation. Otherwise, the fast bullets may "Catch up" to the slower projectiles. Not likely, but still not desired. A constant muzzle velocity is engineered by changing the type and weight of propellant (gunpowder).

    Bullet weight does not affect ballistic path "per se", but does effect the time to target as momentum is greater in the heavy bullet and slows it down at a lower rate. WOW! To make it more confusing is the need to account for supersonic drag as the bullet slows down below 1800 feet per second. All this esoteric stuff is estimated for ammo loaders with the term "Ballistic Coefficient", obviously designed to evoke wonder in non reloaders.

    The shape of the bullet is a big deal in lowering the ballistic coefficient. That's why you see many streamlined bullets described as "Boat Tail". With constant muzzle velocity, Boat Tail bullets will slow down more slowly than a flat based projectile and therefore shoot "flatter". Over time, the drop is exactly the same (Thanks, Gallileo), but over equal distance, the heavier, slower bullet will drop more at target impact.

    Finally, the effective weight of ball ammo can be "Cheated" by drilling a hole down the middle to lighten the bullet. Same bullet but less weight means higher muzzle velocity but more rapid slowing over the course. This is the much maligned "Hollow Point" bullet, designed for less drop over shorter range. Not likely to be used in aircraft guns but I threw it in to show how sectional density is a factor. Projectiles with fuzes must have a somewhat reduced sectional density so this discussion would apply in explosive projectiles.

    Manipulating convergence, in my opinion, is a waste of time. Select a distance at which you intend to fire and use that for all guns. That's what they did in the war. Marksmanship trumps engineering.
    Last edited by Baffin; Oct-17-2020 at 10:35. Reason: Weight test completed. See post#16, this thread...
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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    What Baffin just said, plus get as close as you can, close enough to smell their fear and let RIP....
    Don't let Grudges fester and poison your future happiness......get your revenge as quickly as possible.

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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    Something has been bothering me lately.

    If I load my guns with a mix of different ammo types, say armor piercing and incendiary to keep it simple, the weight of the projectiles is not the same.

    This implies, in theory, that their trajectories and velocity would also be different.

    Is this assumption correct, and if so, does it mean that ammo of different types would never reach the same point of impact when mixed?

    In this case, does it make more sense to load the same type of ammo per gun, and adjust the vertical convergence to compensate for the difference in weight? For example, gun #1 loaded with Incendiary and a vertical convergence of say 300, and gun #2 loaded with AP and a vertical convergence of 400 (or whatever figures make sense)?
    I am not a credentialed ballistics expert, merely a former firearms, ammunition, and re-loading components salesman. (my first post retirement incarnation)
    I will venture to say that you are correct. Projectiles of the same calibre, from the same gun barrel, having different weights have different velocities and trajectories.
    Subsequently, they will not have the same point of impact when mixed. The difference could easily be as much as 6 to 12 inches of dispersion at ranges of 400 yards or meters
    This dispersion could be greater than the thin profile of a fighter aircraft wing when fired upon directly from astern.
    Machine guns or automatic cannon make this even more complicated.
    The barrel rapidly heating up and shaking under firing will increase dispersion of the projectiles as well. The further the projectiles travel after leaving the barrel the more they slow and the more parabolic the trajectory.

    The study of internal ballistics (what happens in the gun), external ballistics (what happens on the way to the target), and terminal ballistics (what happens after the projectile strikes a target) can keep you amused and fascinated for a good bit of time. I remember a series of videos on YouTube called "Sniper 101". This fellow had over 70 videos covering these fields as applied to rifle shooting. I do recommend them if they are still available. (been a year or three).

    I think the best thing to do is continue as you always have. Load the mixed bag of projectiles, and get as close as possible to the victim before letting loose.
    This will reduce the dispersion as much as possible, retain the kinetic energy of the projectile and subsequently maximize it's destructive effect.

    Remember of course, to always hold any members of the Beloved Bloated Blennie Brigade safe and harmless from any such undertakings .
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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_JackMaxx View Post
    What Baffin just said, plus get as close as you can, close enough to smell their fear and let RIP....
    That "get close until see enemy eyes color" pilot anecdote don't sounds effective, a pilot with that original early British 400 yards (365 meters) convergence firing at 100 yards don't have good bullets concentration over target.

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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    I remember one of the German 'aces' talked about shooting regularly from 50m in an old interview. Is the debris falling off a plane simulated (collision wise) in CloD?

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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Thanks guys for your replies.
    Now I am not sure I understand my question anymore
    Yes of course, shooting from a shorter distance is the obvious answer.
    This being said, can someone explain why I can put 400+ rounds of AP / Incendiary bullets (I have a script that counts hits in SP mode) into a Beau without any apparent incendiary effect, while one Dewilde bullet (I only hear one click when I am hit) sets my entire G.50 wing on fire in less time than it takes to say it?
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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by von Graf View Post
    Is the debris falling off a plane simulated (collision wise) in CloD?
    No, but parts collision is modeled in IL-2: GB (RoF and Flight Circus).

    https://youtu.be/8QfFIeJmBN0?t=391

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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    This being said, can someone explain why I can put 400+ rounds of AP / Incendiary bullets (I have a script that counts hits in SP mode) into a Beau without any apparent incendiary effect, while one Dewilde bullet (I only hear one click when I am hit) sets my entire G.50 wing on fire in less time than it takes to say it?
    The same reason why every time the very first bullet of a G. 50 fired from 600 yards perforates my oil cooler.

    It's not the machine that matters, its the pilot!

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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Snargle's use of the term "dispersion" is much more appropriate in discussing automatic weapon fire, especially in a moving platform like an airplane, ship, or even a soldier hot-footin' it through the desert. While manufacturers like Sierra Bullets publish all ballistic factors for hundreds of bullets, we must remember that they are shooting from a secure rest in the most controlled of situations. In the charts, it's very impressive to see tiny changes due to weight, velocity, etc., but it's pretty useless to those of us trying to shoot a jinking enemy from a roaring Spitfire going 300 MPH in turbulence after having chili with beans for lunch.

    Put the bad guy in the center of the ring and close in until you can't stand it anymore. Then hose him down. !
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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Dispersion is modeled in the sim, including if the weapon is fuselage, wing or turret mounted. Projectile weights do vary by type but I think that effect would be minor in the first few hundred meters of travel.

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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by 1lokos View Post
    That "get close until see enemy eyes color" pilot anecdote don't sounds effective, a pilot with that original early British 400 yards (365 meters) convergence firing at 100 yards don't have good bullets concentration over target.
    Watching the videos of "He who must not be named"
    He usually fires a second before he collides with his target, he could dispense with the guns and throw the bullets at his victim. so my advice for what its worth is, get as close as you can or dare and hose them down (thanks Baffin). your bullets within convergence range will never exceed the width of the target.
    Don't let Grudges fester and poison your future happiness......get your revenge as quickly as possible.

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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_JackMaxx View Post
    Watching the videos of "He who must not be named"
    He usually fires a second before he collides with his target, he could dispense with the guns and throw the bullets at his victim. so my advice for what its worth is, get as close as you can or dare and hose them down (thanks Baffin). your bullets within convergence range will never exceed the width of the target.
    It's a really good point that firing after reaching the convergence range will always pattern inside of the shooter's wingspan. Maybe your fire is less than fully concentrated, but at least you're hitting the target (Horizontally).

    An inverse application of this occurs during strafing ground targets... if convergence is too close, you must be dangerously close to the truck/lorry before bringing concentrated fire to bear on the target. If you fire too soon (to distant), your fire will criss-cross before hitting the truck. This is a good reason to put your tracers on the outboard guns. With outboard tracers, you will be able to see the criss-cross point as you close to convergence distance. Closer in, you can see the tracers dig an "Impact ditch" on each side of the target. This is an "happy place" since 75% of your bullets are striking between the tracers. It's another reason to use the RAF standard 400 yard convergence for air-to mud work.
    Last edited by Baffin; Oct-17-2020 at 10:37. Reason: corrected firing point
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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Are the statistics you get after the singleplayer mission working correctly?
    I'm asking because, from my point of view, I don't hit anything but after the mission the report regularly says I have damaged several planes to i.e. 58% and the planes got down (maybe because other pilots did finish them or they had emergency landings).
    Last edited by von Graf; Oct-17-2020 at 01:26.

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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by von Graf View Post
    Are the statistics you get after the singleplayer mission working correctly?
    I'm asking because, from my point of view, I don't hit anything but after the mission the report regularly says I have damaged several planes to i.e. 58% and the planes got down (maybe because other pilots did finish them or they had emergency landings).
    You’re gonna have to ask the author. I got it from this thread.
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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    Something has been bothering me lately.

    If I load my guns with a mix of different ammo types, say armor piercing and incendiary to keep it simple, the weight of the projectiles is not the same.

    This implies, in theory, that their trajectories and velocity would also be different.

    Is this assumption correct, and if so, does it mean that ammo of different types would never reach the same point of impact when mixed?

    In this case, does it make more sense to load the same type of ammo per gun, and adjust the vertical convergence to compensate for the difference in weight? For example, gun #1 loaded with Incendiary and a vertical convergence of say 300, and gun #2 loaded with AP and a vertical convergence of 400 (or whatever figures make sense)?
    Using the game menus, I just finished weight testing a Hurricane with Ball, AP and DeWilde ammo loads. They all weigh the same regardless of the Projectiles selected. I must assume, therefore, that the ballistic path of all three bullets are the same IN OUR GAME. I think it would be asking a lot of our programmers to try to comprehensively simulate exterior ballistics when there's no real impact in the simulation. Just my opinion...
    Last edited by Baffin; Oct-17-2020 at 10:39.
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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    You’re gonna have to ask the author. I got it from this thread.
    That's really cool, thanks.

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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    I get that all types of ammunition from each gun have the same ballistics, but what about different guns?

    Do 20mm Hispanos and .303's all converge at the exact same spot if all the guns are set the same? Or could the cannons actually be hitting higher or lower than the .303's, thus requiring a slightly different vertical convergence setting to get everything perfect?

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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    The bullets will converge in the adjusted range, but cannon shells have an slight different trajectories than .303's.
    See the same in this scheme for Bf 109:

    https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.c...9&d=1381882766

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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by 1lokos View Post
    The bullets will converge in the adjusted range, but cannon shells have an slight different trajectories than .303's.
    See the same in this scheme for Bf 109:

    https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.c...9&d=1381882766
    If I get the example right, does it show a vert./horiz. convergence of 200m on both weapon systems; cannons and machineguns?

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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    Something has been bothering me lately.

    If I load my guns with a mix of different ammo types, say armor piercing and incendiary to keep it simple, the weight of the projectiles is not the same.

    This implies, in theory, that their trajectories and velocity would also be different.
    That very much depends on the gun and ammo. Most of the light and heavy machine guns would not be affected much as their rounds are all very similar in regard to muzzle velocity and projectile weight. As at the typical firing range of 0 - 300m the time to travel to target for these guns is usually very short (<0.5s) it wont matter if a bullet is 20-30 m/s faster or slower.
    Some WW2 cannons however were very much affected by this, especially the mine shell shooting MG FF/M and MG151/20.

    For example: All of the rounds of the MG FF/M had a projectile weight of 115-117 g and a muzzle velocity of ~580 m/s. All rounds, except the mine shell. That one weighted 92g and had a muzzle velocity of ~710 m/s. Was the same story for the MG 151/20 which fired the same projectiles but at a higher muzzle velocity.

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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by von Graf View Post
    If I get the example right, does it show a vert./horiz. convergence of 200m on both weapon systems; cannons and machineguns?
    400/400 on the MGs clearly

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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by Karaya View Post
    Originally Posted by von Graf View Post
    If I get the example right, does it show a vert./horiz. convergence of 200m on both weapon systems; cannons and machineguns?
    400/400 on the MGs clearly
    Since Bf 109' MG's are very close on fuselage, less than half meter, having then converging more far (than cannons) make their useful range very larger, ~from 150 to 650 meters their bullets have little space in between.

    http://www.pumaszallas.hu/Private/VO...iesscheibe.jpg
    Last edited by 1lokos; Oct-20-2020 at 12:39.

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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by Karaya View Post
    That very much depends on the gun and ammo. Most of the light and heavy machine guns would not be affected much as their rounds are all very similar in regard to muzzle velocity and projectile weight. As at the typical firing range of 0 - 300m the time to travel to target for these guns is usually very short (<0.5s) it wont matter if a bullet is 20-30 m/s faster or slower.
    Some WW2 cannons however were very much affected by this, especially the mine shell shooting MG FF/M and MG151/20.

    For example: All of the rounds of the MG FF/M had a projectile weight of 115-117 g and a muzzle velocity of ~580 m/s. All rounds, except the mine shell. That one weighted 92g and had a muzzle velocity of ~710 m/s. Was the same story for the MG 151/20 which fired the same projectiles but at a higher muzzle velocity.
    We're opening another can of worms in the unit of weights here! I do not know how wartime bullets were weighed, but in the modern U.S., bullets and powder have been measured in Grains. (7000 gns/pound). I suspect that some of Karaya's 20mm cannon numbers deal with grams or some other unit under the metric system.

    For converting these weights, check out this link:

    https://www.metric-conversions.org/w...s-to-grams.htm
    Last edited by Baffin; Oct-19-2020 at 15:14. Reason: corrected false bore size.
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    Supporting Member Karaya's Avatar
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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    The Wehrmacht used the metric system, no grains to be found.

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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by Karaya View Post
    The Wehrmacht used the metric system, no grains to be found.
    Thank you! Confusion avoided.
    Last edited by Baffin; Oct-20-2020 at 09:17.
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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    BTW - Spit/Hurri bad shooters (like me) can benefit in use this set at right, instead in insist in use an "historic" (or not) convergence blah-blah-blah:



    Notice that the settings help if fire at short distance than convergence, because bullets cross at half of convergence distance and in this case increase damage probability in one of enemy wing or in the two.

    My hit percentage with this planes increase after set in that way, as well fires caused in enemy planes.
    Last edited by 1lokos; Oct-20-2020 at 12:40.

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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    "The German iL2CoD munition types have been animated in a version "verbessert" (improved)."

    Spoiler: 


    There is a good reason why (machine guns) vertical standard convergence is 500 m (Visierschuss). The German iL2CoD munition types have been animated in a version "verbessert" (improved). The cartridges are of high-velocity type for maximum performance in aircraft machine guns and give higher pressure than other 7,9 mm rounds.

    Cartridge, 7.92x57, S.m.K. - Spitzgeschoss mit Kern
    (iL2CoD weapons.ini - v1.05.15950)
    MuzzleVelocity 865 ms

    Cartridge, 7.92x57, S.m.K.H. - Spitzgeschoss mit Kern, Hart
    (iL2CoD weapons.ini - v1.05.15950)
    BasedOn Mauser7.92x57_S.m.K.
    MuzzleVelocity 868 ms

    Cartridge, 7.92x57, S.m.K. L'spur (gelb) - Spitzgeschoss mit Kern, Leuchtspur (gelb)
    (iL2CoD weapons.ini - v1.05.15950)
    BasedOn Mauser7.92x57_S.m.K.
    MuzzleVelocity 905 ms

    Cartridge, 7.92x57, S.m.K. L'spur (weiss) - Spitzgeschoss mit Kern, Leuchtspur (weiss)
    (iL2CoD weapons.ini - v1.05.15950)
    BasedOn Mauser7.92x57_S.m.K._L'spur(gelb)

    Cartridge, 7.92x57, S.m.K. Ub.m.Zerl. - Spitzgeschoss mit Kern Ubungsmunition mit Zerleger
    (iL2CoD weapons.ini - v1.05.15950)
    BasedOn Mauser7.92x57_S.m.K.
    Payload Concussion 0.5 g of Amatol

    Cartridge, 7.92x57, P.m.K. - Phosphor mit Stahlkern
    (iL2CoD weapons.ini - v1.05.15950)
    BasedOn Mauser7.92x57_S.m.K.
    Payload Thermal 0.5 g of Amatol
    MuzzleVelocity 905 ms

    Cartridge, 7.92x57, B. - Beobachtung
    (iL2CoD weapons.ini - v1.05.15950)
    BasedOn Mauser7.92x57_S.m.K.
    Payload Thermal 0.5 g of Amatol
    MuzzleVelocity 855 ms

    Referring the *******t.ini, iL2CoD-v1.05.15950, the standard convergence for all BF109E is defined as follows:

    nose mounted MG 2x Rheinmetall-Borsig MG 17 (7.92mm)
    vertical convergence == 400 m (Visierschuss)
    horizontal convergence == 420 m (Kreuzung)

    wing mounted MG 2x Rheinmetall-Borsig MG 17 (7.92mm)
    vertical convergence == 500 m (Visierschuss)
    horizontal convergence == 300 m (Kreuzung)

    wing mounted MG 2x Oerlikon/Ikaria MG FF (20mm)
    vertical convergence == 500 m (Visierschuss)
    horizontal convergence == 300 m (Kreuzung)

    wing mounted MG 2x Oerlikon/Ikaria MG FF/M (20mm)
    vertical convergence == 500 m (Visierschuss)
    horizontal convergence == 300 m (Kreuzung)
    Last edited by 1lokos; Oct-19-2020 at 18:58.

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  46. #29
    Supporting Member Karaya's Avatar
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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by 1lokos View Post
    "The German iL2CoD munition types have been animated in a version "verbessert" (improved)."
    Yes, the Luftwaffe had special "-v" type rifle caliber ammunition which had a higher loading and thus higher muzzle velocity.
    It is important to note however that this -v ammo was only allowed to be fired from MG17s and eventually MG81s. Older MG15s had to make do with the regular ammunition.

    Unfortunately this is currently not the case right now in CloD, all German machine guns use the -v type ammo. Maybe this will be rectified in a future patch?
    Shouldnt be too hard to do as it would only require cloning the existing ammo and adjusting the muzzle velocity accordingly. The data is readily available.

    http://michaelhiske.de/Wehrmacht/Luf...Tabelle001.htm
    Last edited by Karaya; Oct-20-2020 at 02:50.

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  48. #30
    Supporting Member von Graf's Avatar
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    Re: Ammo question to the experts

    Quote Originally Posted by 1lokos View Post
    BTW - Spit/Hurri bad shooters (like me) can benefit in use this set at right, instead in insist in use an "historic" (or not) convergence blah-blah-blah:



    Notice that the settings help if fire at short distance than converge, because bullets cross at half of convergence distance and in this case increase damage probability in one of enemy wing or in the two.

    My hit percentage with this planes increase after set in that way, as well fires caused in enemy planes.
    I've set my guns in a similar way as depicted right. I checked the hits by a script I've got here and it's better for me now.

    And the visible crossing of the FF ammo in front of me did irritate me a lot first before you posted the drawing some days ago that explained this behaviour.

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