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Thread: Coming soon - Ziel Tobruk!

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    Coming soon - Ziel Tobruk!

    Hi everyone,

    With a lot of help from Spiritus and Artist I've created a new MP mission for the ATAG server. All things going well it should be available soon.

    Its kinda/sorta based on the situation in Tobruk in April 1941 with Tobruk being surrounded and the first large Axis assault due any day/hour. If you have played the SP Rats over Tobruk campaign that came with DWT then the ground situation is very similar as i have used that as the template for this MP mission.

    In the interests of MP gameplay I have modified it somewhat though so that aircraft that didnt arrive in-theatre until later on are still available (not every base has all available aircraft though - later arriving aircraft tend to be a tad further away from Tobruk than those that were available in April 1941). A few other non-historical things have been added to balance the sides.

    Once it becomes available I'd really appreciate constructive feedback if you come across issues etc so I can tweak it. For example some of the targets have a large amount of low calibre AAA in their vicinity and I may have overdone it. And the amount of bombs required to take out an airfield may need tweaking as well depending on feedback. While there are some long range tgts for the bomber pilots amongst you the main focus is attrition/ protection of ground forces preparing to attack / defend Tobruk. So a lot of the mission is focussed in the Tobruk area and I will be interested to see how that goes with large player numbers - it may also need tweaking as well.

    I'll post the respective briefs and tgts decks in the next couple of posts in this thread with more detail about what the mission involves

    Spoiler alert - its a 3 hour mission and the last hour involves a large (50+) AI Panzer attack on the perimeter (which is based on the Good Friday attack on Australian defensive positions for those that know the history of the Tobruk siege in detail). If the Panzers reach their objective the map is flipped. So there's plenty of ground targets for Red tank buster aircraft to kill in the last hour (and maybe before then as well...) which will hopefully draw Blue fighters to prevent them doing so. There's also AI aircraft raids that can be called as well, similar to how Spiritus has set up Mirror and Sandstorm. So I'm hoping that this map will still be playable / enjoyable at those times of the day when the server numbers are down.

    Standby for the mission briefs and tgt decks.

    Ezzie

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    Re: Coming soon - Ziel Tobruk!

    Ziel Tobruk - Red Mission brief and target deck

    0700 Briefing Red

    Tobruk is surrounded and enemy forces are preparing to assault the perimeter within the next 24 hours. The Red Commander's orders are to:

    (a) Defend Tobruk's harbour, enroute shipping and Red ground forces located within the perimeter
    (b) Attrit Blue mechanised forces to delay the impending assault
    (c) Interdict Blue harbour facilities and coastal shipping supplying their forward forces
    (d) Attack a key Blue airfield to crater the runway and destroy fuel supplies located on are nearby airfield
    (e) Attack enemy command group vehicles travelling to the stepping off point for the Blue assault
    (f) Defend Red command group enroute Tobruk in four high speed Vosper MTBs

    Specific details as follows.

    Defend Tobruk harbour to prevent Red tankers in harbour from being sunk

    Defend 4 tanker convoy heading west towards Tobruk from air attack. Convoy located AU17@0700 and should be at AQ18@0900 before arriving in Tobruk around 0945

    Defend 4 x Vosper MTBs carrying Red command team heading west to Tobruk. The Vospers are located in AV18@0700 and are expected to be at AS17@0745 before arriving in Tobruk around 0840.

    Defend radar towers located at Fort Perrone (AO18)

    Defend Tobruk airfield No 2 'El Gubbi' located at AP18

    Protect tank concentrations located at Sidi Mahmud (AO18) and Hagiag Chafgla (AO18)

    Protect HQ tents located inside Fort Pilastrino (AO18)

    Attrit Blue tank concentrations by 50% at El Adem #1 (AO16), Ghot el Taaleb (AK18) and Ras Bu Geheir (AL18)

    Destroy 2 tankers in Derna harbour and attrit recently offloaded armour located nearby by 70 %

    Destroy 5 coastal freighters heading to Marsa el Gazala. These vessels were last located heading south-south-east in AH21 @ 0700.

    Damage Gazala No 2 (LG150) by dropping 4500 kg of bombs on airfield.

    Destroy 6 of 8 fuel tanks at Gazala No 2 (LG150)

    Find and destroy enemy command group travelling in 2 x halftracks. Group probably departed Ras Bu Geheir at dawn and is believed to be travelling to El Adem #1 via Akramah and possibly Ghawat Al Arnab. Based on desert road conditions the halftracks will likely arrive at El Adem around 0845

    Destroy radar site located SW of Sidi Bu Ahmud (AI19)

    Targets

    axis command route_copy.jpgAxis command vehicle_bw.jpgaxis_convoy_copy.jpgDerna tgt map overview_1.jpgDerna_ship_vehicles_photo.jpggazala no 2 photo_bw.pngGazala No 2_1.jpgTank Park_1_2_copy.jpgTanks_el_adem_copy.jpgTanks_geheir_bw.pngTanks_taaleb_bw.png
    Last edited by ATAG_Ezzie; Nov-13-2020 at 00:15.

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    Re: Coming soon - Ziel Tobruk!

    0700 Briefing Blue

    Tobruk is surrounded and Blue forces are preparing to assault the perimeter within the next 24 hours. The Blue Commander's orders are to:

    (a) Destroy shipping in Tobruk's harbour, enroute shipping and attrit Red ground forces located within the perimeter
    (b) Attrit Red mechanised forces located inside the perimeter that will pose a threat to our impending assault
    (c) Defend Blue harbour facilities and coastal shipping supplying our forward forces
    (d) Defend Blue airfields including fuel supplies located on the airfield
    (e) Defend Blue command group vehicles travelling to the stepping off point for the our assault
    (f) Find and destroy a Red command group enroute Tobruk in four high speed Vosper MTBs

    Specific details as follows.

    Attack Tobruk harbour to destroy at least 4 Red tankers currently alongside in the harbour

    Attack a 5 tanker convoy heading towards Tobruk. Convoy located heading west in AU17@0700

    Find and destroy 4 x Vosper MTB carrying Allied command team heading towards Tobruk. The Vospers were last detected heading west in AV18@0700.

    Attack communication / radio direction finding towers located at Fort Perrone (AO18)

    Reduce the ability of Tobruk #2 'El Gubbi' to sustain air operations by dropping 4500 kg of bombs on airfield.

    Destroy 6 of 8 fuel tanks at Tobruk #2.

    Attrit Red tank concentrations by 50% at Sidi Mahmud (AO18) and Hagiag Chafgla (AO18).

    Destroy 50% of probable HQ tents located inside Fort Pilastrino (AO18).

    Defend Blue tank concentrations at El Adem #1 (AO16), Ghot el Taaleb (AK18) and Ras Bu Geheir (AL18).

    Defend tankers in Derna harbour and defend recently offloaded armour located nearby.

    Defend 3 coastal freighters heading to Marsa el Gazala. These vessels were last located heading south-south-east in AH21 @ 0700.

    Defend Gazala No 2 (LG150) and the fuel tanks at Gazala No 2 (LG150)

    Defend our command group travelling in 2 x halftracks. The group departed Ras Bu Geheir at dawn and will be travelling to El Adem #1 via Akramah and Ghawat Al Arnab. The halftracks will likely arrive at El Adem around 0845.

    Targets

    Chafgia_tanks_copy.jpgconvy_allied_copy.jpgHQ tents_copy.jpgMahmud tank park_copy.jpgradar_copy.jpgship_tbk_copy_bw.jpgship_tbk_copy_bw.jpgTanks_geheir_bw.pngTanks_taaleb_bw.pngTobruk tgts_copy.jpg
    Last edited by ATAG_Ezzie; Nov-13-2020 at 00:16.

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    Re: Coming soon - Ziel Tobruk!

    Thanks Ezzie.

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    Re: Coming soon - Ziel Tobruk!

    Really looking forward to the launch of your mission Ezzie.

    Stopping for paving the way for those 50 tanks is going to be full on for both sides!

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    Re: Coming soon - Ziel Tobruk!

    Hi Ezzie, thanks for that! The mission sounds nice and I am looking forward to trying it out.

    But when you say you added planes that weren’t there yet in April 1941, which ones did you add? Are we going to be seeing Spitfires, Kittyhawks and 109Fs?
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    Re: Coming soon - Ziel Tobruk!

    Quote Originally Posted by 9./JG52_J-HAT View Post
    Hi Ezzie, thanks for that! The mission sounds nice and I am looking forward to trying it out.

    But when you say you added planes that weren’t there yet in April 1941, which ones did you add? Are we going to be seeing Spitfires, Kittyhawks and 109Fs?
    Hi J-Hat,

    In April 41 the fighters involved in the Tobruk battles were the Hurricane Mk 1 Trop, the E-7 Trop (and maybe other E-7 variants - i'm not an expert on which E-7 variants were there in April), the 110, CR.42 and G50s and another Italian fighter (Breda something maybe?). Most / all the Gladiators had moved eastward away from the main fight and there were some Blenny fighters around as well. The Tomahawks arrived a few months later i think as did the Beaufighters in May/July 1941.

    So while it would be historically correct to only have the above it wouldn't necessarily be well received by players given the limited plane set. So as a compromise the mission will have 109Fs, Kittyhawks, Macchis, Spitfires etc but they wont be available in Tobruk itself or at Gazala No 1 and 2 (the nearest Blue airfield). They'll be at other airfields though (Tmimi, Derna, Gambut and Menastir #2)

    Hurricanes will be in Tobruk along with Blenheims (historical), Beaufighters (not historical) and the Hurri IIC and D models (not historical). The rest of the RAF fighters will operate from Gambut and Menastir #2 which are about the same distance from Tobruk as Gazala / Tmimi give or take a bit.

    Simplistically the later the aircraft variant the further from Tobruk will be the spawn point - from memory if you want to fly a Spit VB HF you can only get it from Menastir #2. And i think the F-2 / F-4s are in Tmimi along with maybe some of the latter Macchi variants. So if you want to have the quickest flight time to Tobruk you'll need to use an April 1941 ish aircraft (with some additions). If you want to fly the later variants you'll have some additional flight time (~ 10 mins perhaps) to reach Tobruk.

    Hope this makes sense?

    Ezzie

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    Re: Coming soon - Ziel Tobruk!

    Thanks for thinking of the quiet times!
    I am Yo-Yo not YoYo (that's someone else)

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    Re: Coming soon - Ziel Tobruk!

    Hey Ezzie, thanks for the explanation. Makes sense, of course.

    I am glad more missions are being added to the server.


    Just thought this could be interesting, since this very topic has been discussed over at the il-2 forums. I made a post from the LW perspective and others contributed with information about the RAF.

    https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic...omment-1013536

    There are also some comments about if an earlier planeset only mission would be a good or a bad thing. Of course that is an almost insignificant sample of the player base.
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    Re: Coming soon - Ziel Tobruk!

    whatever you do ezzie - just make sure you have no triggers in the extra ai .mis files that have doubles in the main mis file.

    And I am all for history limited plane sets.

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    Re: Coming soon - Ziel Tobruk!

    Personally I would LOVE to have only the historical planes - even if Fs and Spits are available only at rear bases people will still fly them a lot, and it's really not a lot of fun flying a Hurri or G50 against a 109F or Spit V. I would definitely remove those from the map if it were up to me, but it's your mission so do with it what you please! Just showing my support for the historical options.

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    Re: Coming soon - Ziel Tobruk!

    Definite supporter of historical/restricted planesets here.
    I am Yo-Yo not YoYo (that's someone else)

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    Re: Coming soon - Ziel Tobruk!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yo-Yo View Post
    Definite supporter of historical/restricted planesets here.
    Thanks Yo-Yo and Flare - I'm a historical supporter as well. However using the earlier version of Fall Rot and Dynamo as examples it seems there's a fair chunk of players who would rather not fly at all than fly an early period historically accurate aircraft if they aren't familiar with it or competitive in it. Dynamo for example used to only have Spits available in England (only Hurris in France) and many players would leave rather than have to fly their Spits 15 minutes to where the action was.

    So its a tricky balancing act.

    My ideal compromise would be to have the available plane sets linked to the mission time. So in the first hour of this mission only the April 41 aircraft are available (as listed earlier) and then in the 2nd hour the later 1941 aircraft types and in the last hour the later variants would be available. This wouldnt please the Spit flyers though as they would only get to fly it for the last hour. But it might be an acceptable compromise perhaps?

    But I'm not sure if this is do-able via scripting? If it is the scripters are already very busy doing stuff so this may not be a priority for them?

    Ezzie

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    Re: Coming soon - Ziel Tobruk!

    Quote Originally Posted by 9./JG52_J-HAT View Post
    Hey Ezzie, thanks for the explanation. Makes sense, of course.

    I am glad more missions are being added to the server.


    Just thought this could be interesting, since this very topic has been discussed over at the il-2 forums. I made a post from the LW perspective and others contributed with information about the RAF.

    https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic...omment-1013536

    There are also some comments about if an earlier planeset only mission would be a good or a bad thing. Of course that is an almost insignificant sample of the player base.
    Thanks J-Hat - hadnt seen this thread so thanks for the link. It seems they are likeminded re historical as well.

    Maybe for an event we could do a modified version of Ziel Tobruk and set it in April 1941 with the April 41 plane set? Do you think that would be of interest and would get players trying the earlier aircraft?

    Ive just finished about 90 mins on the map and noticed most players were flying the later models Spits which is not quite what i had in mind (but knew it would probably happen).

    I guess the question is - if there were no spits available or only the initial Vb desert would they still play?

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    Re: Coming soon - Ziel Tobruk!

    A question for those that have flown on this map

    Did you see the ground units spawn in (there are 2 probing attacks involving ~ 20 + tanks and halftracks on the western perimeter in the first 2 hours) and then the final main assault on the southern perimeter at the 2 hour mark which is aiming for Tobruk #2 airfield)?

    If you did - did you see their dust easily?

    I was orbiting over the southern attack and could see the exchange of fire and bursting shells but struggled to see the dust trails / vehicles themselves. I got shot down before i could properly investigate though so am curious if others saw the tanks etc and their dust.

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    Re: Coming soon - Ziel Tobruk!

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Ezzie View Post
    Thanks J-Hat - hadnt seen this thread so thanks for the link. It seems they are likeminded re historical as well.

    Maybe for an event we could do a modified version of Ziel Tobruk and set it in April 1941 with the April 41 plane set? Do you think that would be of interest and would get players trying the earlier aircraft?

    Ive just finished about 90 mins on the map and noticed most players were flying the later models Spits which is not quite what i had in mind (but knew it would probably happen).

    I guess the question is - if there were no spits available or only the initial Vb desert would they still play?
    To be honest, I don't know. The only way to know for sure would be to test it. Put the mission up without them for some time and see how it goes, ask for feedback. But now we need to build a baseline with the mission in the current form to be able to compare?

    I imagine most of the CloD players would be fine with the historical planesets and understand that a Hurricane is worse than a 109E-7 in some aspects and that you need to fly accordingly. Just like 109 flyers also adapt and know not to turn with the Hurricanes (or engage a Spitfire co-E for that matter).
    I would also imagine 3 months after release it would be "ok to go back" to variants (semi-)available in original CloD instead of flying just the brand new ones. And it is a completly different scenario than the BoB.

    I for sure would like it more if the planesets were historically accurate. And like you already observed, I also wouldn't think twice about getting a 109F if I know I could encounter Spitfire Mk Vs over the AO. But I always take off from rear airfields anyways, so the time needed to get there isn't a problem.


    And while we are on this subject, a good way to make the later planes available in a historically correct setting different than mid-1942 over the desert (which we have been playing since release) would be to do a mid-1941 mission in the channel map, simulating the RAF summer offensive in that year.

    https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.c...476#post364476
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    Re: Coming soon - Ziel Tobruk!

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Ezzie View Post
    Thanks J-Hat - hadnt seen this thread so thanks for the link. It seems they are likeminded re historical as well.

    Maybe for an event we could do a modified version of Ziel Tobruk and set it in April 1941 with the April 41 plane set? Do you think that would be of interest and would get players trying the earlier aircraft?

    Ive just finished about 90 mins on the map and noticed most players were flying the later models Spits which is not quite what i had in mind (but knew it would probably happen).

    I guess the question is - if there were no spits available or only the initial Vb desert would they still play?
    Hi Ezzie,
    you know, people online will always take the best plane available. Eight years of taking the 109 E4N and Spit II.

    The April 1941 planeset is the one that has already been written before, unfortunately it is quite limited. Probably the most interesting planeset is "late '41/early '42", keep this in mind if you will make other maps in the future.

    Thank you for making a nice map, and carry on!

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    Re: Coming soon - Ziel Tobruk!

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Ezzie View Post
    Thanks Yo-Yo and Flare - I'm a historical supporter as well. However using the earlier version of Fall Rot and Dynamo as examples it seems there's a fair chunk of players who would rather not fly at all than fly an early period historically accurate aircraft if they aren't familiar with it or competitive in it. Dynamo for example used to only have Spits available in England (only Hurris in France) and many players would leave rather than have to fly their Spits 15 minutes to where the action was.

    So its a tricky balancing act.

    My ideal compromise would be to have the available plane sets linked to the mission time. So in the first hour of this mission only the April 41 aircraft are available (as listed earlier) and then in the 2nd hour the later 1941 aircraft types and in the last hour the later variants would be available. This wouldnt please the Spit flyers though as they would only get to fly it for the last hour. But it might be an acceptable compromise perhaps?

    But I'm not sure if this is do-able via scripting? If it is the scripters are already very busy doing stuff so this may not be a priority for them?

    Ezzie
    The first paragraph is exactly the reason.
    If that is still the case, then it will always be the best available aircraft in the game on either side that get picked.
    Like mentioned in my previous post, I would like to think the CloD player base thinks differently than that nowadays (less purely competitive and more historically oriented).
    The reason behind this would be that many players have left CloD over the years to play more competitively where most of the players are playing (BoS).


    I think that putting the effort into scripting the planeset evolving through the mission (if it isn't something you can just do without much effort) could be a waste of resource (even if I think it would be a cool thing personaly).

    My reasoning is:

    1 - if earlier planesets in a mission, even with them being correct for the time period, are unatractive for players, starting with them earlier on just to change later to better planes wouldn't change the fact that people didn't want to fly them in the first place. It would just make players join later or not join at all (at the risk of joining too early, before the change, leaving and not coming back).

    2 - If earlier planesets in a historical mission are attractive (players would join and play the mission as they would with Spitfires etc.) then you might as well leave it like that and just rotate to a mission afterwards that include these planes and represents a later point in time.

    So the work done to include the scripting and evolve the planeset throughout the mission wouldn't offer any advantage for the work involved.
    Last edited by 9./JG52_J-HAT; Nov-13-2020 at 19:21.
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    Re: Coming soon - Ziel Tobruk!

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Flare View Post
    ... it's really not a lot of fun flying a Hurri or G50 against a 109F or Spit V ...
    I wouldn't say that
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    Re: Coming soon - Ziel Tobruk!

    Thanks for your thoughts J-Hat and Hellrider.

    I'll chat to the ATAG server brains trust about a possible plan to address some of your comments, something like the following perhaps

    (a) leave the mission as is for now so we can tweak it if required and players can figure out where the ground targets are and the hot spots for dogfights (ie when the AI 111s go over Tobruk at 5000m with 20 mins warning time etc)

    (b) maybe come up with a special event 'backs to wall' version with just the April 1941 planeset and see how that goes ie something like the events Pattle is organising with the backs to the walls / April 1941 planeset

    (c) maybe then do another couple of other special events representing the different plane sets available during the ~7 months siege that finished in late 1941 and see how they go re interest / player participation

    (d) if the above go well then perhaps put the special event maps into the rotation as well along with the current version and see how players respond to having this variety across 3 maybe 4 versions of the same map each with a different plane set which is ~ historically based


    Ezzie
    Last edited by ATAG_Ezzie; Nov-13-2020 at 21:22.

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    Re: Coming soon - Ziel Tobruk!

    Quote Originally Posted by 9./JG52_J-HAT View Post
    The reason behind this would be that many players have left CloD over the years to play more competitively where most of the players are playing (BoS).

    I honestly think that many online players have left Clod for a lack of content from the servers.

    Although the missions had objectives, no one focused on them. It was always a vulching on the nearest enemy base. Years and years of this is boring!

    I've always suffered from this, I wanted more interesting servers, with people thinking about bombing and people escorting or hunting them. But I resisted and still play Clod, many others have decided to go to BoS, where the servers are good.

    A big incentive to play well would be having a site with stats. With "stats" I don't mean the number of kills, but a complete stats-system (as there is on BoS, IL2 46 and almost all sims, even in sim racing). Many players (me in first) want to see what they did in the sortie, what happened, etc. etc.
    Also, giving points for bombing would encourage people to do so.

    Stats and points = bombers = fighters high = teamwork = fun/realism = more players = sold more copies of Clod = more players

    Some friends who would like to buy an air sim. and get closer to WWII planes often ask me to recommend a "game". I always say Clod is the best, so they ask me how many players there are online. I am ashamed to answer that during the week there are less than 20.
    After this response, many bought BoS. Sad but true.
    Last edited by 5th Hellrider; Nov-13-2020 at 22:33.

  32. #22
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    Re: Coming soon - Ziel Tobruk!

    S!~

    I remember when Cliffs was populated early on- and it was a sh@t show of lock ups and server disconnects. Thats when the game lost pilots. Everything else is what every game deals with- getting outshined by the new games. People move on - and a desert map cant change that - even with how good it is. Sometimes it ramps up later- who knows.
    I heard there are new swords- but I gave my 2 boys full size hardwood katanas when they were fairly young-same as 2000 years ago - for it makes them feel history- in all its pain and glory. The new swords have no meaning until you can understand how to fight with the old sword - Cliffs is my old sword. Still sharp - still deadly - still difficult to master - still hurts like hell when you get hit- still master ronin hunting you every night with their own swords- hehe Cliffs is good - but BOS and DCS took a large number of pilots to which many of them we never saw again- unless you fly those games. Sometimes there is less of public media focusing on WW2 aircraft - which could also have an impact on interest in this sim. And there is also the killer factor. Who could get this game- come in - and have any fun w/o getting completely annialated by every one of us trained pilots? - mostly from flying for 20 years + - in fact it sucks for newbies- and most of them go find easy sh@t- like BOS- from what I hear. Poor bastards.
    Im sure we all agree that ATAG itself is and has been the benchmark server and forums for reliabilty - steadfast leadership - and acceptance of many ideas and views . I'd like to say thank you from the flight sim community- for sticking around. Many great relationships have been forged - and many broken - in and through ATAG and its numerous alliances with other good servers - some great also. Its almost like there are type A people here ready to fight it out at any moment-wink- yet there remains a modicum of respect -feigned or not - for each other. "Ziel Tubruck"

    S!~ AKA_Blasto
    <a href=http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2895&dateline=1384197801 target=_blank>http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.co...ine=1384197801</a>

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  34. #23
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    Re: Coming soon - Ziel Tobruk!

    tenor.gif

    PS5 here I come.

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  36. #24
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    Re: Coming soon - Ziel Tobruk!

    My two cents:

    Well, theoretically I am all for fully historical missions and plane set.
    But practically we should ask whether this is possible and where it makes sense.

    Imho historical accuracy is nothing you ever can achieve on a regular multiplayer server, this is something for sp missions and campaigns.
    On servers you can get 'semi-historical' if you have servers with clear restrictions, using very specific kinds of missions or campaigns, like TWC and Tuttovola. This needs dedicated pilots or squads who sign up and are commited to fly regularly.

    Servers like TFS 3 or Axis vs. Allies, but also DangerDogz rather draw single pilots or squads who want to have fun for some hours and that's it.
    This means, in order to be attractive as a server, you have to give them the planes they want, working stats and missions that can be accomplished. Historical accuracy is way down the list there, its simply not the place for it (except special events).

    The fact that pre-Tobruk the majority of players moved from Axis vs. Allies to DangerDogz for a while demonstrated that 'no mission' can be more attractive to the dogfighter crowd than 'always the same missions'. I.e. you join a server, you look for 'objectives left' you check time left and decide: nothing I can really achieve. So you move over to a place where the crowd is and you can get shot down quickly.

    Having still more servers for a relatively small player base would not solve the problem.

    Thus, in my opinion: leave 'historical' sets to servers that are dedicated for this and for special events.
    On TFS 3 and Axis vs. Allies provide missions that attract as many players as possible by providing the full plane set, interesting targets that are manageble and give results, functioning stats and regular changes, updates and tweaks of missions.



    And, before I forget:
    A VERY BIG THANK YOU to all who actually work hard to create new missions instead of just complaining that new missions would be needed.


    S!


    DerDa

  37. #25
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    Re: Coming soon - Ziel Tobruk!

    Mission looks nice and I'm looking forward to trying it. I noticed it was finally possible to "roll the map" by clearing targets in some missions on the latest maps, I hope this trend will increase somehow (I don't know how this works). It's a big aspect driving people to actually go for the targets if they know they can acomplish something by winning the map !

    For example some of the targets have a large amount of low calibre AAA in their vicinity and I may have overdone it.
    Heavier FLAK is badly needed in this game in my opinion, please overdo it

    Where it's needed the most though is on the airbases. Since we are talking about the low numbers of players in the game, let me add constant low level furballs near the bases to the list of reasons some people left the game for good.

    As mentioned, the game IS hard for new players. There is no manual to teach them how to play, they have to accept the older graphics, the servers are empty most of the time, and if when finally they spawn they are repeatedly PKed by a strafing beaufighter, the chances they will leave the game are high.

    Please understand I have nothing at all against vulching on principle. But it makes the game boring when the majority of the players just disregard the targets and fly straight to the enemy base to shoot at planes taking off. Increasing the risk with stronger AAA makes it so much more interesting : then you have to plan your attack more carefuly, fly higher or prioritize the FLAK first, level bomb from high altitude (or at least dive bomb), bring friends along for a quick strike and fly back to safety before AAA gets you, etc.

    I can say with certainty that CLOD also lost a lot players for this reason : the "quality" of the action has dropped dramatically, and I know many people who simply left the game because of this.

    Of course, when you make a realistic mission and you see the deck dofighters leave, you think that you need fast action maps only. But you are not taking into account the rest of the players who voted with their feet already, and who might come back if they saw a change. Other games are better suited to this type of fast action anyway (War Thunder, and even BOS), so building maps tailored to low level furballs may not keep the numbers from falling. CLOD feels more realistic than War Thunder or BOS. Why have a more realistic platform and play in an arcade way when the competition is better at it ? Why not capitalize on your strenghts ?

    Private servers are not the answer because the player base is too low (right now, saturday afternoon 13:30 GMT = 5 players connected in the entire world, on 3 different servers).

    On TFS 3 and Axis vs. Allies provide missions that attract as many players as possible by providing the full plane set, interesting targets that are manageble and give results, functioning stats and regular changes, updates and tweaks of missions.
    Regarding the stats, they are functionning but part of the problem. For fighters, they give you "kill/flight", which is again tailored for the "let me shoot at as many people as i can before i die" style. Change it to "kill/death", the standard in ALL games, and you will have more interest in surviving, more interesting engagements, and less need for the best dogfighter plane. For bombers, they give you 1 kill/1 point, which means bombing a plane, a tank, a ship or a motorcycle is all the same. 1946 servers stats included a system of points giving bombers more points for important targets. This again steered the action toward the objectives, to the satisfaction of both players and mission designers.
    Last edited by 5th_ClydeFrog; Nov-14-2020 at 08:41.

  38. #26
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    Re: Coming soon - Ziel Tobruk!

    Thanks for still making maps, especially on Tobruk they are truly needed. Why having an all new DLC and still play most of the server's maps on channel 1940?
    Surely the players have dropped a lot in the last few weeks, now it's difficult to find 10-15 players during the week (apart from event nights). I hope that with new material some could be back.

    As highlighted above, many left (at least the most of who I spoke with) because of the "Call of duty" (spawn-kill players still taking off-die-repeat) style of game in most servers and the absence of good and detailed stats.

    Regarding historical/semi-historical I, unfortunately, have to disagree with Derda, from my point of view:
    • Historical server: the one when you have accurate planeset, accurate time frame, accurate ground battle (according to what was irl) and people fly only to reenact the historic battle more than try to win the scenario.
    • Semi-historical: you have an accurate planeset with some exceptions when some plane are missing in the game (on DW I can think of G50 as Saetta or Br20/Torpedo 111 as S79). The front is almost as historical as possible and the people join trying to win the maps or the campaign if it's a full campaign server.
    • Casual ones: where you have all the planes in the game or at least the more performing one, not taking into account the time frame.You also nations that shouldn't be there (I can think of US in middle 41 scenarios).
    • Dogfight servers: little map and all planes available, good for training and practice.


    From my point of view, the semi Historical are the best and the ones that attract the most players since their "competitive" nature as well as a good historic feeling (correct planes and maps) they are the most played in Bos as well as they were in il2-46. But they also need good stats to support it.

    Thank you anyway for still working on missions to put on servers they are needed, the more variety the better!

    Please also consider an early 42 scenario for the desert, you could have some more performing machines like P40s and Macchi 202s but still not the same Spit vs 109 stuff we played for so much time, otherwise, a channel 41 flying the RAF circus operations could be a middle ground.

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  40. #27
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    Re: Coming soon - Ziel Tobruk!

    I think nthis mission was the one where i had an awesome experience attakcing He111s as they attacked tobruk, best fighter fun I've had so far.

    I would like to report that the runway markers in Menastir no2 need re-aligning/removing if possible they are at about 90 degrees to the runway and I watched a poor beaufighter try to take off along them,... messy.

    On the realism side of things, as a lone player I don't look for the fly anythign for a quick jolly, and when it is 99% 109Fs unrated vs Spit Vs I think tiwce whether to bother flying. In BoX some of the better fun for me as a lone player is when things were pushed to just BoM aircraft, you;re still most likely goign to get nailed by someone who knows 1000s of hours in their plane compared to you, but it is somehow more refreshing!

    Again as a lone player, short distance tankbusting is a prefered activity for me, in BoX you can take an Il2 and have great fun alone, in Tobruk there is the Hurricane with the big cannons, so the tank attack in this mission, that I haven't admitedly seen yet, is a good step for lone players (providing the AA defending it isn't oo extreme).

    Flying longer distances just to be destroyed by ship defenses is not so much fun, and when you fly alone there is also less incentive to get home after a long flight , and sometimes yeah, I just put down in the desert (sorry). Because after 35 mins or so to take off and get to target, drop my bombs, I then turn for home and my mind starts to wander... hmm, 30 minutes more just to see no one else attack that target, might has well put down and go do something else...

    In fairness to the well known active BoX server it can provide the ability to fly many quick-ish ground attack missions, and with the number of people who also attack ground targets it provides a good feeling of working towards an objective....except of course for when it is little more than a hateful cesspit of insults bruise degos and overewhelming blue fighters...

    My recomendation is to have mission objective points to be given more value for long distance ones, and shorter distance ones less points but still be able to provide some 'points feedback sense' to the lone players.

    Some good things are done on maps already, there is one where you can stop 109E4Ns or something being availible if a target is hit, and once I did seem to clear an objective behind the lines in France just with a Blenheim bombload.

    I'd suggest having points being awarded for lower partial damage scenarios, but with more total points being needed to win a map.


    So a long flight that got behind the lines and did even a small bit of damage to an oil depot would still award a point, which kind of mirrors the impression I get from real life accounts of missions, as long as fires are seen it is considered a success. If you wipe out the facility you could maybe get a total of 3 points. So a lone player who makes the effort gets an ego massage for getting a point, a squad who do a long flight and flatten it are heroes

    Then say there are 4 groups of tanks, each group could be worth a point, so a lone player making repeated attempts on the same group may be able to acheive a point.

    Obviouslty the points required to turn the map would need to be higher with other targets avaiable too.
    I am Yo-Yo not YoYo (that's someone else)

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  42. #28
    Manual Creation Group DerDa's Avatar
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    Re: Coming soon - Ziel Tobruk!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yo-Yo View Post
    I think nthis mission was the one where i had an awesome experience attakcing He111s as they attacked tobruk, best fighter fun I've had so far.

    I would like to report that the runway markers in Menastir no2 need re-aligning/removing if possible they are at about 90 degrees to the runway and I watched a poor beaufighter try to take off along them,... messy.

    On the realism side of things, as a lone player I don't look for the fly anythign for a quick jolly, and when it is 99% 109Fs unrated vs Spit Vs I think tiwce whether to bother flying. In BoX some of the better fun for me as a lone player is when things were pushed to just BoM aircraft, you;re still most likely goign to get nailed by someone who knows 1000s of hours in their plane compared to you, but it is somehow more refreshing!

    Again as a lone player, short distance tankbusting is a prefered activity for me, in BoX you can take an Il2 and have great fun alone, in Tobruk there is the Hurricane with the big cannons, so the tank attack in this mission, that I haven't admitedly seen yet, is a good step for lone players (providing the AA defending it isn't oo extreme).

    Flying longer distances just to be destroyed by ship defenses is not so much fun, and when you fly alone there is also less incentive to get home after a long flight , and sometimes yeah, I just put down in the desert (sorry). Because after 35 mins or so to take off and get to target, drop my bombs, I then turn for home and my mind starts to wander... hmm, 30 minutes more just to see no one else attack that target, might has well put down and go do something else...

    In fairness to the well known active BoX server it can provide the ability to fly many quick-ish ground attack missions, and with the number of people who also attack ground targets it provides a good feeling of working towards an objective....except of course for when it is little more than a hateful cesspit of insults bruise degos and overewhelming blue fighters...

    My recomendation is to have mission objective points to be given more value for long distance ones, and shorter distance ones less points but still be able to provide some 'points feedback sense' to the lone players.

    Some good things are done on maps already, there is one where you can stop 109E4Ns or something being availible if a target is hit, and once I did seem to clear an objective behind the lines in France just with a Blenheim bombload.

    I'd suggest having points being awarded for lower partial damage scenarios, but with more total points being needed to win a map.


    So a long flight that got behind the lines and did even a small bit of damage to an oil depot would still award a point, which kind of mirrors the impression I get from real life accounts of missions, as long as fires are seen it is considered a success. If you wipe out the facility you could maybe get a total of 3 points. So a lone player who makes the effort gets an ego massage for getting a point, a squad who do a long flight and flatten it are heroes

    Then say there are 4 groups of tanks, each group could be worth a point, so a lone player making repeated attempts on the same group may be able to acheive a point.

    Obviouslty the points required to turn the map would need to be higher with other targets avaiable too.
    Strongly agree to most points.
    I think you will like the concept of the new mission by FG28_Matkenhauser

  43. #29
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    Re: Coming soon - Ziel Tobruk!

    Thanks.

    Apologies for the poorly constructed and typed post above, I was somewhat distracted when trying to type earlier.

    I would like to say that I already see some of what I prefer in missions on TF/ATAG, my comments above are not suggestions because it is lacking from all missions I see, just saying what I prefer and the direction I like.
    I am Yo-Yo not YoYo (that's someone else)

  44. #30
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    Re: Coming soon - Ziel Tobruk!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yo-Yo View Post
    and when you fly alone there is also less incentive to get home after a long flight
    I disagree, at least in my style of play (and I flew a lot alone in periods where my teammates weren't flying).
    I always try to get the job done (kills or bombing obj) and always get home. Survivability is everything imho. What's the point of scoring point if you die soon afterwards?
    That's why a K/D ratio is highlighted in almost every game. It's easy to do tons of kills on airplanes still on the ground until you die, but going out, have some fights and kills and come back at base is always rewarding.
    At least that my point of view.

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