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Thread: Tiger moth - applying opposite aileron for tighter turns while taxiing?

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    Question Tiger moth - applying opposite aileron for tighter turns while taxiing?

    Hello,
    Can somebody please explain to me, how applying opposite aileron to rudder should result in a tighter turn? I only found on the internet usage for ailerons during crosswind and there the application depended on the wind direction. Nothing related to taxiing.
    I believe when you for example want to turn left you apply left rudder and theoretically applying left aileron would lead to increased pressure on the left wheel - causing more friction and increasing the turn rate. Applying the opposite aileron? Don't see how that should work...
    I am asking as use of the opposite aileron is written in the official manual - so what am I missing?
    Výstřižek.jpg

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    Re: Tiger moth - applying opposite aileron for tighter turns while taxiing?

    Hi Pete,

    We're talking about behavior while taxiing, not when flying.

    So the only air effect is that of the propeller. There is not enough speed to have significant effect on the ailerons.

    As per below picture, you will see that when you put the stick to one side (right in this example), the aileron to the opposite side (so left in the example) is lowered and shows a bigger drag surface to the prop wash, and the aileron on the same side (so right in this example) is raised, and shows a smaller drag surface to the prop wash.

    Therefore, when taxiing at slow speeds, putting the ailerons in the opposite direction results in tighter turns (or facilitated turns rather).

    In real life, this is applicable in low wind conditions. In case of heavy lateral wind, the ailerons should always be put to the side from which the wind is blowing...

    I hope this helps

    2021-02-13_115524.jpg
    Last edited by ATAG_Noofy; Feb-13-2021 at 07:08.
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    Smile Re: Tiger moth - applying opposite aileron for tighter turns while taxiing?

    Thank for quick and detailed answer. Yeah I read on the internet that the down aileron has usually bigger surface and thus higher wind resistance (makes sense).
    However I also knew that for example the torgue generetaed by the proppeler engine puts bigger vertical load on one of the wheel making it cause more friction which results e.g. in left turning tendencies which you have to counter by right rudder during takeoff.
    So in simillar fashion I was assuming that puting more pressure on the wheel would make this effect even bigger (increase the load on that wheel).

    But it probably depends on which of these effects (drag of aileron, drag of more weighted wheel etc.) plays the major role which can be dependent on the engine power, speed etc.

    Anyway - thanks for the confirmation and explenation - I hate when I don't understand something even tho it's just some "detail"

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    Re: Tiger moth - applying opposite aileron for tighter turns while taxiing?

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    Hi Pete,

    We're talking about behavior while taxiing, not when flying.

    So the only air effect is that of the propeller. There is not enough speed to have significant effect on the ailerons.

    As per below picture, you will see that when you put the stick to one side (right in this example), the aileron to the opposite side (so left in the example) is lowered and shows a bigger drag surface to the prop wash, and the aileron on the same side (so right in this example) is raised, and shows a smaller drag surface to the prop wash.

    Therefore, when taxiing at slow speeds, putting the ailerons in the opposite direction results in tighter turns (or facilitated turns rather).

    In real life, this is applicable in low wind conditions. In case of heavy lateral wind, the ailerons should always be put to the side from which the wind is blowing...

    I hope this helps

    2021-02-13_115524.jpg
    Very interesting. Like you said, a pilot in real life is usually preoccupied with wind management (apply aileron into a quartering headwind or dive away from a tailwind), but I rarely consider it during CLoD taxiing. This sounds like a great CLoD trick!

    What you describe sounds like adverse yaw (In flight, aileron deflection causes opposite direction yaw) but I've never thought about using it in real life on the ground. At all speeds, the downward aileron produces lift and therefore produces "Induced Drag" (Drag associated with lift). It's not really drag from a surface in the airstream like landing gear which is known as "Parasitic Drag".

    For some good explanations, see:

    https://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli...7_phak_ch5.pdf (Page 5-6)

    I suspect that this "Adverse yaw" turning force on the ground would be a low windspeed phenomenon which is what we usually experience in our sim.

    I'd love to hear from one of our current light airplane (Taildragger) pilots to see if this yaw is noticeable on the ground with no crosswind. I've always taught tricycle gear airplanes, so ground turning was more automotive than aeronautical. I'm surprised I haven't read about it before this.
    Last edited by Baffin; Feb-13-2021 at 12:29.
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    Re: Tiger moth - applying opposite aileron for tighter turns while taxiing?

    I was coming from this picture - where it's simple - the left wheel has more friction, thus the airplane wants to turn left.
    So I was thinking "Ok, so let's apply even more pressure on the wheel to have even more friction" which would require ailerons in the left direction so it pushed the left wing down.

    But the fact is, the left turning tendencies - there is multiple factors - not just the wheel drag. So providing higher drag surface probably results in higher impact than trying to increase the load on the wheel and induce more gear drag especially at low speeds the added vertical force would be probably too low.

    Well, I will jump in game and test it out bymyself (was too late yesterday)

    Výstřižek.PNG

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    Re: Tiger moth - applying opposite aileron for tighter turns while taxiing?

    You can use opposite aileron-rudder on air turns, if want keep the turn flat, e.g. on approach:

    training_turns.jpg

    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...?id=1427104845

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    Re: Tiger moth - applying opposite aileron for tighter turns while taxiing?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1lokos View Post
    You can use opposite aileron-rudder on air turns, if want keep the turn flat, e.g. on approach:

    training_turns.jpg

    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...?id=1427104845
    I would never teach this, except to a very experienced pilot. Cross controlling (Slip/Skid) close to the ground will rapidly bleed off airspeed and may lead to a stall/spin situation. "Rudder Turns" are a cheat because, while they change the heading, they do not change the flight path without accompanying bank. Depending on the location of the static port, incorrect airspeed indications may also result. Coordinated flight (Ball Centered), except in special cases like forward and side slips for airspeed and glidepath control, is always the best technique in the traffic pattern.

    The above diagrams are simply showing the need to reduce aileron pressure once the bank is established. That's common sense.

    However, skidding and slipping at training altitudes is excellent practice in what the airplane can do. Review stall/spin recovery procedures beforehand.
    Last edited by Baffin; Feb-13-2021 at 12:25.
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    Re: Tiger moth - applying opposite aileron for tighter turns while taxiing?

    I use it only to bleed excessive speed during approach

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    Re: Tiger moth - applying opposite aileron for tighter turns while taxiing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baffin View Post
    I would never teach this, except to a very experienced pilot. Cure:
    That's just a (video) game, I make nice flat turns with Hurricane coming to land.

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