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Thread: Tackling 109s

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    Question Tackling 109s

    I'm still very much a novice fighter and find it practically impossible to get behind a 109 let alone hit one. I never seem to be able catch up with one, they always seem to be in the distance or, obviously, climb with one. Are there any basic tactics I can use to at least scratch their body work?

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    Re: Tackling 109s

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloud-Clipper View Post
    I'm still very much a novice fighter and find it practically impossible to get behind a 109 let alone hit one. I never seem to be able catch up with one, they always seem to be in the distance or, obviously, climb with one. Are there any basic tactics I can use to at least scratch their body work?
    Hi Cloud,

    The 109 is a Boom and Zoom fighter. Because of this, it prefers flying fast so an experienced pilot will not get into a turn fight where speeds are low.
    You don't mention what plane are you using but, if using a hurricane, the only way you will be able to catch up with a 109 is having an altitude advantage and diving on it to gain speed.
    If you are flying a spitfire, depending on the model, you should be able to catch up with a 109 at certain altitudes or, again, by diving on it.

    Also, climbing with a 109 is normally not going to work. Even if the climb rates of both planes are similar, the 109 tends to be able to climb on a steeper angle.

    Another thing to learn, in order to maximize your airplane capabilities, is the managing of radiators and trim. Open radiators cause a lot of drag which will slow you down by those much needed 5 or 10 KPH.

    I recommend jumping on Teamspeak on a multiplayer server and asking for help. The community is very friendly and most will be glad to team up with you and help you ease the learning curve.


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    Re: Tackling 109s

    Appreciate the response and details. I was flying a Hurri but have now moved on to a Spit. I thought that may have evened things a little but I'm still chasing shadows.

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    Re: Tackling 109s

    Success depends on a lot of factors and aircraft performance is just one of them.
    Naturally it is important which variant of which aircraft you and your opponent are flying.
    A Friedrich is quite another beast than an Emil.

    Generally you can say that all variants of 109 are faster, better climbing, better diving and have a better roll-rate than any Hurricane. In addition they carry much more ammo. The only advantage is that the Hurricane is better at horizontal turns.

    Spitfires and 109 are better matched (Spit Ia vs. 109 E1 - E3, Spit IIa vs. 109 E4, Spit V vs. 109 F), still the 109 has all the advantages mentioned above, but less marked (depending at variant and altitude). But also the Spit's advantage at horizontal turns is less marked than with the Hurri.

    P40's are a good match against 109 E's (less so but still competitve against F's) in speed and roll rate but only below 15.000 ft. They will always try to drag you up and if you allow this you are lost. Your advantage then is a higher dive speed.


    This is just the aircraft performance. At least as important is a second factor: the flying skills. A good pilot in a bad ac will still shoot down a bad pilot in a good plane.
    If you are flying online all depends who you meet.
    If you are flying against AI, keep in mind that they will not make mistakes in engine management (they will always adjust all parameters in no time to get perfect performance and they always know exactly where you are). But, depending on their skill level, they sometimes start to do stupid things that you can exploit.

    The third factor is tactics. Try to be able to choose your fights. If you don't have crucial advantages like height or speed or numbers, then try to get away. And never engage multiple enemies when you are alone.

    Because resurrection is just a click away in computer games many virtual pilots tend to fly reckless. In reality it was much more sensible to run, survive and fight another day.

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    Re: Tackling 109s

    I like to call the F4 a F18.......................
    There's something good waitin' down this road
    I'm pickin' up whatever's mine.
    "Tom Petty...Runnin' Down A Dream...Full Moon Fever"

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    Supporting Member Karaya's Avatar
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    Re: Tackling 109s

    The Hurricane definitely did not age as well as its contemporaries and was outclassed from 1941 onwards. That's why after suffering heavy losses in the western desert, it was mostly replaced by lend-lease P-40s in the air superiority role.
    The Battle of Britain was the zenith of the Hurricanes career as a daylight fighter, after that it was slowly relegated to the role of a ground pounder.

    As for what you can tackle in the allied birds on a fairly even basis:
    The Hurricane Mk.I stands its best chances against the Bf109E-1, E-3 and E-4. It has a much harder time against the /B and /N model Bf109Es as those possess a very significant speed advantage at most altitudes and can easily engage/disengage at will.
    The Hurricane Mk.II is an upgrade, especially at higher altitudes. It can fight /B and /N model Emils on more even footing. However, it is very much outclassed by the Friedrichs and unless you can surprise your opponent or he makes some severe mistakes he will absolutely dominate the fight.

    The P-40s are kind of the poor man's Spitfire. They are much faster than any of the Hurricanes up to around 15,000ft and are nimble enough to mix it up with the Bf109s in a turn fight. Their biggest disadvantages are a lack of climb rate and their poor performance at higher altitudes. Both the Tomahawk late and Kittyhawk should be able to go toe to toe with any of the Emils and with some careful flying even with some early model Friedrichs (F-1, F-2). However, the Bf109F-4 is head and shoulders above both of them.

    The Martlet is comparable to the Hurricanes. You can fight it out with Emils but the Friedrichs will just leave you in the dust, no matter if it's in a climb, straight line or in a dive.

    The Spitfires are without doubt the most competitive allied fighters in the game, there's pretty much always a suitable counterpart for any of the Bf109s.
    The Mk.I/Ia 100oct are a good match for the Bf109E-1, E-3, E-4 and even the /B models. However, the /N model Bf109Es will give you a hard time.
    The Mk.IIa/IIb/early Mk.V can confidently fight any of the Emils as well as some early model Friedrichs (F-1, F-2). The Bf109F-4 however is a very hard nut to crack.
    The late model Mk.Vs can fight it out with any of the available 109s on a fairly even footing, even against the F-4 although that gets increasingly difficult the higher the fight goes. At 20,000ft and higher you will have to tread carefully.

    Both the Spitfire Mk.Vb late and the Bf109F-4 are in their own league within the planeset of Blitz/Tobruk.
    Last edited by Karaya; May-19-2021 at 07:00.

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    Re: Tackling 109s

    What about the G.50 in all this?
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    Supporting Member Karaya's Avatar
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    Re: Tackling 109s

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    What about the G.50 in all this?
    This is the G.50s role in all of this.


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    Re: Tackling 109s

    Quote Originally Posted by Karaya View Post
    This is the G.50s role in all of this.

    Porca miseria ...
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    Re: Tackling 109s

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    What about the G.50 in all this?
    Or our Beloved Bloated Blennies?
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    Re: Tackling 109s

    Italian engineering at its best...



    Last edited by ATAG_Noofy; May-21-2021 at 23:58.
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    Re: Tackling 109s

    Lets not to be too hard on Italian designers.

    In most cases they did the best they could with their limited engine manufacturing resources.

    Once they got the license to build German Inline engines, they created some excellent aircraft.

    The Fiat G-55 was second to none in 1943. (other than being quite expensive to build)

    The fact is, all the various nations involved in WWII were limited by their manufacturing base in terms of what they were capable of achieving in aeronautical design.

    It was no coincidence the US was able to build the most complex aircraft, (B-29) designed and brought into action during the war.

    Their industrial base was the biggest, most flexible, and dynamic of any country involved in the war. (and they had the advantage of being able to cooperate with the British and use their technology... and vice versa)

    A lot of mythology has grown up about German 'Superweapons' including aircraft... but the fact is, even the most successful Jet, the Me-262, was not produced in large enough numbers to be significant.

    The reason it was not produced in quantity was a direct result of lack of German resources and lack of advances in critical areas... in particular metallurgy... the flaws in the Jumo Jet engines which powered the 262 were the main reason its arrival was so delayed and also why the aircraft never appeared in numbers which could impact US/British air superiority.
    Last edited by RAF74_Buzzsaw; May-27-2021 at 01:23.

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    Re: Tackling 109s

    What Buzz wrote about the industrial capacity of the US is certainly perfectly true.
    Another decicive factor was the wealth of natural resources the Allies had unlimited access to, petrol being just the most obvious of many.

    But (as part of a collaborative research centre working on the subject 'Resources') raw-materials are just materials, they need human activity (culture) to turn into resouces. And the most important resource in warefare (and every other aspect of human life) are human beings. And again it is decisive how this resource is treated and used by different cultures.
    As I wrote above: the aircraft is just a tool, the best tool is worth nothing if handled by a fool.
    The Nazis, the Japanese and the Sovjets treated human beings as replacable numbers in a mass, not as individuals. Each of them thought that their people were somehow mythically superior to others just because they belonged to their own group, sharing 'race' and/or 'ideology'.
    Fighter pilots necessarily are a highly individualistic bunch, because in the end they are fighting alone, man versus man. This maybe explains why almost all the Nazi leaders despised the Luftwaffe fighters. They dreamt of masses of bombers, flying in formation, mercilessly erasing 'the enemy' from earth (and ironically the individualistic western Allies showed them how to do exactly this).

    If you think that 'your people' are superior anyhow, there is no need to train them to be outstanding from the mass. So the well trained, experienced Japanese and German fighter pilots (and ground troops) were sacrificed in stupid actions and replaced by young boys without proper training but a lot of propaganda in their heads.

    Back to immediate topic:
    For successfully tackling any enemy aircraft: learn to use your resources (those of the plane you fly and your own one), work with your strenghts and deny the enemy to exploit your weaknesses.


    S!


    DerDa

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    Re: Tackling 109s

    DerDa's comments are quite valid.

    For example, the most obvious failure in the Nazis management of people, (due to their genocidal race based philosophy) was driving both Albert Einstein and Robert Oppenheimer, (both Jews) out of Germany with their policies.

    These two individuals were key to the creation of the Atomic bomb.

    Had they stayed in Germany, it is possible Germany would have been the first to develop the bomb. (although again, Germany's comparative lack of economic might compared to the US might have prevented this... the Manhattan project was enormously expensive)

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    Re: Tackling 109s

    The German V-weapons (V-1 and V-2) cost the equivalent of around US$40 billion (2015 dollars), which was 50 percent more than the Manhattan Project that produced the atomic bomb.[10]:178
    the cited source: Ordway, Frederick I, III; Sharpe, Mitchell R. (2003). Godwin, Robert (ed.). The Rocket Team. Apogee Books Space Series 36. p. 32. ISBN 1-894959-00-0.

    So theoretically they had the money to do it, good thing they chose to spend it to build rockets otherwise we could have had a Man in the high castle situation on our hands.

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    Re: Tackling 109s

    Quote Originally Posted by palker View Post
    The German V-weapons (V-1 and V-2) cost the equivalent of around US$40 billion (2015 dollars), which was 50 percent more than the Manhattan Project that produced the atomic bomb.[10]:178
    the cited source: Ordway, Frederick I, III; Sharpe, Mitchell R. (2003). Godwin, Robert (ed.). The Rocket Team. Apogee Books Space Series 36. p. 32. ISBN 1-894959-00-0.

    So theoretically they had the money to do it, good thing they chose to spend it to build rockets otherwise we could have had a Man in the high castle situation on our hands.
    The price you quote for the V weapons is for the entire cost of manufacturing and building many thousands of rockets as well as their launch facilities... the research to develop the rockets was much less.

    The price generally listed for the Manhattan Project is just the research and development for the initial few bombs.

    So different... if you really look at the full cost of getting the bomb delivered to target, as well as building up a stockpile, it would be much more.

    The other factor is the Germans did not have a big enough or knowledgeable enough scientific community to build the bomb... many had left Germany for the US... others had left the occupied countries for the US.

    Germans were far behind the US... not even close to building a bomb.

    The Russians later built their own Atomic bomb much more cheaply, but they had the advantage much of the data was stolen from the US and provided to them.

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    Re: Tackling 109s

    Quote Originally Posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw View Post
    Lets not to be too hard on Italian designers.
    You misunderstood my post. It was a tribute to their creativity...



    Quote Originally Posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw View Post
    The Fiat G-55 was second to none in 1943.
    Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes please!!!!!
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    Novice Pilot checkhov's Avatar
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    Re: Tackling 109s

    A lack of aviation fuel was the biggest downfall for the Me262 as over 1400 were built but only 200 ever saw combat by 1944 the German war machine was reduced to using synthetic oil
    which is expensive and lengthy to make the Allies on the other hand had billions of galleons available.

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    Re: Tackling 109s

    Quote Originally Posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw View Post
    Lets not to be too hard on Italian designers.

    In most cases they did the best they could with their limited engine manufacturing resources.

    Once they got the license to build German Inline engines, they created some excellent aircraft.

    The Fiat G-55 was second to none in 1943. (other than being quite expensive to build).
    Italy was ill prepared for any kind of war, their industrial base was catastrophic and a domestic study in the 1930s predicted that it would take the nation until the late '40s to be in a position where it could actually sustain one.
    And while Italy produced some high quality airframes, most of them were less than ideal for mass production and required too much craftsmanship, too much time and were overly expensive to build. This manifested in the ridiculously low production figures of domestic fighters. Of the Macchi 202, one of the most produced Italian aircraft of WW2, only around 1200 examples were built

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    Re: Tackling 109s

    And after the war the Italians found a handy use for all the leftover tailwheels from their aircraft. Voila, it turns into the front wheel of a Vespa scooter. Now that's ingenuity par excellence and with style.
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    Re: Tackling 109s

    Quote Originally Posted by Karaya View Post
    This is the G.50s role in all of this.
    Nah, the G.50’s role is to waste the ammo of over-eager Hartmanns and to teach red pilots how to boom and zoom
    Author of the Their Finest Hour, Their Greatest Challenge, Desert Hawks, Eagles over Tobruk, On Ne Passe Pas!, and Rising from the Ashes campaigns for Cliffs of Dover Blitz and Desert Wings - Tobruk.

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    Re: Tackling 109s

    Quote Originally Posted by Cybermat47 View Post
    Nah, the G.50’s role is to waste the ammo of over-eager Hartmanns and to teach red pilots how to boom and zoom
    Humm humm humm. Never underestimate a G.50…
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