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Thread: Starting next Round of AI Routine Improvements: Let us know what needs fixing

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    Starting next Round of AI Routine Improvements: Let us know what needs fixing

    Hello All

    We improved the AI Routines for both TF 4.5 and TF 5.0, we are now starting work on improving AI for TF 6.0.

    This round of improvements to the AI Routines will focus on allowing the players to command their wingmen and flights better... so the AI obeys the player orders to attack/return to base/disengage/etc./etc.

    We are inviting the community to submit their wishes for fixes/changes to the current AI command/control system.

    We do not see changing completely the the current menu system... players will still select commands with keyboard entry strokes... sometimes multiple entries will be required for particular commands.

    What we are concerned about is fixing/improving the current lack of response by the AI to commands... and/or adding additional commands.

    If you can be systematic in describing the areas which you think are the most important and where the game is currently lacking, we would appreciate your input.

    Thanks again for your support!
    Last edited by RAF74_Buzzsaw; Oct-09-2021 at 18:32.

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    Re: Starting next Round of AI Routine Updates: Let us know what needs fixing

    Please, fix AI bombers waving and crashing....
    Would like to play few campaigns but it is impossible due this issue.

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    Re: Starting next Round of AI Routine Improvements: Let us know what needs fixing

    About AI on multiplayer servers:
    It would be nice to have AI cover bombers/ground attackers to stay in a given formation and especially trying to stay at a certain altitude specified by the leader.

    On TWC you have to stay below 200 ft in order to avoid radar detection.
    Currently it is impossible to do this with AI cover, because they are all over the place flying in front or hanging back and at any altitude, whatever the leader commands.

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    Re: Starting next Round of AI Routine Improvements: Let us know what needs fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by DerDa View Post
    About AI on multiplayer servers:
    It would be nice to have AI cover bombers/ground attackers to stay in a given formation and especially trying to stay at a certain altitude specified by the leader.

    On TWC you have to stay below 200 ft in order to avoid radar detection.
    Currently it is impossible to do this with AI cover, because they are all over the place flying in front or hanging back and at any altitude, whatever the leader commands.
    Part of the problem is the AI are hardcoded not to go below 50-100 meters unless in the landing routine.

    To change this would mean dramatically increasing the load on the player CPU because then the CPU needs to start monitoring every single AI in relation to every object in the game for collision purposes and for that reason I don't think the change will happen.

    I understand TWC is trying to be realistic, but in this case, it might be taking it a bit far.

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    Re: Starting next Round of AI Routine Improvements: Let us know what needs fixing

    I don't pretend to understand what is needed to code AI in game, but I like a mixture of expert and novice AI, for challenge and target practice. AI sometimes seem to be able to perform maneuvers that seem unlikely to be possible in RL, one pet hate of mine is the " porpoiseing" of bombers to avoid attack, no turn ,climbs or dive ,just porpoiseing which in RL life would turn the crew to jam quite quickly.

    Also with introduction of Truesky improvement AI ability to spot and maintain contact will need to be refined to match that of live pilots in poor visibility.


    This thread could easily become a whinge-fest, so its important to me that I say, TFS are doing a great job, I really appreciate the improvements in spotting in HDR(although the Blue meanies can see me better as well) Blue Meanies.jpg

    Keep up the good work TFS and Thank you
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    Re: Starting next Round of AI Routine Improvements: Let us know what needs fixing

    Just having these available as they were when it first released (but this time all working) would be a huge step forward.

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    Re: Starting next Round of AI Routine Improvements: Let us know what needs fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw View Post
    Part of the problem is the AI are hardcoded not to go below 50-100 meters unless in the landing routine.

    To change this would mean dramatically increasing the load on the player CPU because then the CPU needs to start monitoring every single AI in relation to every object in the game for collision purposes and for that reason I don't think the change will happen.

    I understand TWC is trying to be realistic, but in this case, it might be taking it a bit far.
    Thanks for the explanation.
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    Re: Starting next Round of AI Routine Improvements: Let us know what needs fixing

    My suggestion for fighters would be:
    -Cover me
    -Attack fighters/bombers/ground objects/shipping
    -Disengage
    -Return to base

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    Re: Starting next Round of AI Routine Improvements: Let us know what needs fixing

    It would be great if one could select a point on the map and tell the AI to head there (and do X, Y or Z).
    Kind of what can be done on the mission editor but in real time but simpler.

    For example:
    - Click on the in-game map and mark point A.
    - Tell the AI squadron to go to point A, patrol and attack air targets.

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    Re: Starting next Round of AI Routine Improvements: Let us know what needs fixing

    The thing about the AI that bothers me the most is the fact that their spotting ability is superhuman. You can't surprise an AI pilot...they can see you if you even if you are approaching in their blind spot from 6 o'clock low, they can see you if you are diving out of the sun, they can see you if you are in or behind a cloud, they can see you in the dark. All things that a human pilot is unlikely to be able to do. I'd love to see this behavior fixed!

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    Re: Starting next Round of AI Routine Improvements: Let us know what needs fixing

    This AI suggestion has to do with flying as a fighter pilot in Single Player. I often fly SP for practice or just relaxing, and find the AI behavior to be inconsistent. Let me explain, as it has to do with the setting of Skill Levels for the individual AI flyer.

    This is what I am told is the meaning of the Skill Level Numbers found in the .mis file, example….
    First number = Basic Flying
    Second = Advanced Flying
    Third = Awareness
    Forth = Aerial Gunnery
    Fifth = Tactics
    Sixth = Vision
    Seventh = Bravery
    Eight = Discipline

    These numbers appear in the mission file like this..
    Skill0 .06 .06 .06 .06 .06 .06 .06 .06

    The first thing I would like to suggest is that TF put together an explanation of the numbers and suggested setting for curtain practice scenarios. This could help a newbie adjust the quick missions as good practice scenarios.

    The second thing is that the AI still is taking supper human maneuvers to avoid being shot at. Even with the Skill level set as low as .05 and above. Repeated Snap rolls for example, while doing these snap rolls bobbing up and down, and still maintaining ground speed as if flying straight and level.

    I do not see all the above as often or as pronounced in Multiplayer as I do in Single Player, but it is still there.

    These observations are primarily Fighter vs Fighter, but I have had JU-87’s go crazy on me in both MP and SP.

    Thank you TF for asking.

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    Re: Starting next Round of AI Routine Improvements: Let us know what needs fixing

    Stop AI wingmen crashing into the ground if you go in to land before them, please.

    Thanks

    M

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    Re: Starting next Round of AI Routine Improvements: Let us know what needs fixing

    BoB:WoVII was Ai coded by Buddeye, probably the greatest Ai coder (at least at the time) for aircraft sims. One feature I would love to see is Ai not being perfect, not flying the aircraft at maximum efficiency.

    This video I created (many years ago) shows footage from BoB: WoVII but the short piece I wish to point out is in the guncam near the end at the 9minute 9second mark.

    So I am in a low turning fighting and have damaged the Ai 109, he is still trying to twist and turn then suddenly he stalls the aircraft which completely amazed me. The fact that the Ai tried to out perform the capabilities of it's damaged aircraft and spun into the ground was something I had never seen and to this day have never seen again.




    It's a bit like the original GRID:Racedriver, I remember coming around a corner and finding a pile up of cars I had to dodge and weave through like Tom Cruise in "Days of Thunder", the Ai had crashed as it had tried to outperform the cars capabilities.



    So I would love to see Ai that isn't perfect and makes mistakes (a bit like as mentioned above, they know where you are even when you come in blind).
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    Re: Starting next Round of AI Routine Improvements: Let us know what needs fixing

    I think the fighter AI is good at the moment if you look at dog fight capabilities. Plus you can set up a wide variety of AI levels.

    Bomber AI needs more attention at the moment I think:
    -Flying circles above target area
    -Making strange manouvres causing crashes
    -Not dropping their bombs above target area



    Quote Originally Posted by Bussard View Post
    My suggestion for fighters would be:
    -Cover me
    -Attack fighters/bombers/ground objects/shipping
    -Disengage
    -Return to base

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    Re: Starting next Round of AI Routine Improvements: Let us know what needs fixing

    +1 Agree with Mysticpuma.

    Put a wobble in the ai control inputs according to skill level and let the flight physics work out the performance accordingly.

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    Re: Starting next Round of AI Routine Improvements: Let us know what needs fixing

    With all due respect to MP's comments:

    - BoB WoV is a completely different game.

    - Buddy was offered the opportunity to work with TF, he declined.

    Errors in MP's comments are:

    - The AI in CLIFFS does make mistakes... they will crash when under pressure... they do not fly error free. This happens more with less experienced pilots. All you have to do to see this is to dogfight rookie AI close to the ground.

    ----

    We are not going to automatically add errors into the lower rated pilots flight modeling... that would be unrealistic... it would mean they would be wobbling all over the place in normal level flight.

    The AI make errors when pushed... whether we change the possibility of that error is something we will consider.

    In any case, the focus of this set of AI revisions is Command and Control... and what in the current system needs revising.

    While we are open to all manner of commentary, we really want to know what needs improving in that area.

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    Re: Starting next Round of AI Routine Improvements: Let us know what needs fixing

    I'm almost never using AI (in multiplayer) and the reason for me is that the communication seems to be overly complicated for my little brain.
    This is just personal opinion, but I would prefer much fewer and simpler (the fewer keystrokes necessary the better) commands that really make them do what you want. Some I remember from my sp time in il2 1946 and they were all I ever used.

    For fighters:
    Close formation
    Wide formation
    Attack bombers
    Attack fighters
    Cover me
    RTB
    Land

    For bombers:
    Close formation
    Wide formation
    Line astern
    Line abreast
    Attack my target
    Attack next target
    RTB
    Land

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    Re: Starting next Round of AI Routine Improvements: Let us know what needs fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw View Post
    With all due respect to MP's comments:

    - BoB WoV is a completely different game.

    - Buddy was offered the opportunity to work with TF, he declined.

    Errors in MP's comments are:

    - The AI in CLIFFS does make mistakes... they will crash when under pressure... they do not fly error free. This happens more with less experienced pilots. All you have to do to see this is to dogfight rookie AI close to the ground.

    ----

    We are not going to automatically add errors into the lower rated pilots flight modeling... that would be unrealistic... it would mean they would be wobbling all over the place in normal level flight.

    The AI make errors when pushed... whether we change the possibility of that error is something we will consider.

    In any case, the focus of this set of AI revisions is Command and Control... and what in the current system needs revising.

    While we are open to all manner of commentary, we really want to know what needs improving in that area.
    Fair enough, I have still never seen an aircraft stall into the ground as shown in that clip but I have seen plenty just crash into the ground for no reason. The clip shows an aircraft Ai losing control of the aircraft, CloD Ai just flies into the ground even when undamaged (obviously not every time but mostly when close to the ground).
    Regarding Buddeye, yep, he was offered a place coding the Ai but he turned it down as he didn't want to work on software that was hacked (back in the pre- 1C days) but he did say he would be interested if TFS had the Source Code. Obviously I am outside of the inner workings now so don't know if he has been approached since the Source Code became available but I can always get in touch with him again if required?

    "We are not going to automatically add errors into the lower rated pilots flight modeling... that would be unrealistic... it would mean they would be wobbling all over the place in normal level flight."

    Wasn't asked for, the point I made was when the damaged aircraft was pushed too hard by the Ai pilot it crashed as the aircraft couldn't sustain the manouveres requested of it by the Ai....because the Ai was flawed and didn't realise the aircraft was as damaged as it was....which is exactly what a human would not know.


    ----------

    That said, previous to the video posted, there is a list of Commands and Controls that were available....are they a possibility?

    Clo_D_Radio_Orders.jpg

    Finally as posted elsewhere, would it be possible to have the gunner look around and only move the turret when engaging an enemy rather than this constant turret twitching?

    Last edited by Mysticpuma; Oct-14-2021 at 11:32.
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    Re: Starting next Round of AI Routine Improvements: Let us know what needs fixing

    I got Voice Attack software (thanks to Baffin, IIRC ) which is inexpensive and quite straightforward to program. Right now I just use it for TAB-7-1 (I just say “Radar” into my mic) and TAB-4-1 (“Enemy”). When I utter the words the software actually keys in the keyboard sequence. Very handy when you don’t wish to take your eyes off the screen.

    I also programmed Voice Attack to toggle off/on when I depress my Teamspeak PTT joystick button so I can speak freely with wingmates without unintentionally activating voice commands.

    I’m away from my PC right now, but later I can provide a link to the software if you wish. I intend to expand the voice commands to include AI commands and even in-cockpit controls.





    Quote Originally Posted by DerDa View Post
    I'm almost never using AI (in multiplayer) and the reason for me is that the communication seems to be overly complicated for my little brain.
    This is just personal opinion, but I would prefer much fewer and simpler (the fewer keystrokes necessary the better) commands that really make them do what you want. Some I remember from my sp time in il2 1946 and they were all I ever used.

    For fighters:
    Close formation
    Wide formation
    Attack bombers
    Attack fighters
    Cover me
    RTB
    Land

    For bombers:
    Close formation
    Wide formation
    Line astern
    Line abreast
    Attack my target
    Attack next target
    RTB
    Land


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    Re: Starting next Round of AI Routine Improvements: Let us know what needs fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper View Post
    ... Right now I just use it for TAB-7-1 (I just say “Radar” into my mic) and TAB-4-1 (“Enemy”).
    And what do you use for eject? "digested food"?

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    Re: Starting next Round of AI Routine Improvements: Let us know what needs fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by DerDa View Post
    I'm almost never using AI (in multiplayer) and the reason for me is that the communication seems to be overly complicated for my little brain.
    This is just personal opinion, but I would prefer much fewer and simpler (the fewer keystrokes necessary the better) commands that really make them do what you want. Some I remember from my sp time in il2 1946 and they were all I ever used.

    For fighters:
    Close formation
    Wide formation
    Attack bombers
    Attack fighters
    Cover me
    RTB
    Land

    For bombers:
    Close formation
    Wide formation
    Line astern
    Line abreast
    Attack my target
    Attack next target
    RTB
    Land
    Formation commands (type, space) work OK in CLoD, with 3 options, close, near, far. Is Just TAB - X, Y. What is broke is the related texts.

    Attack commands sometimes work, sometimes no, and the give the command is convoluted - too much steeps.

    RTB is too a hit and miss, Landing is not available.

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    Re: Starting next Round of AI Routine Improvements: Let us know what needs fixing

    A year ago YoYo start make a single player campaign (I test some missions) - including making a guide about scrips, but ending give up due AI issues, he sumarize the problems there:

    https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.c...highlight=yoyo

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    Re: Starting next Round of AI Routine Improvements: Let us know what needs fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Colander View Post
    And what do you use for eject? "digested food"?
    Nope: I use “HELP! MOMMEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!”


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    Re: Starting next Round of AI Routine Improvements: Let us know what needs fixing

    Vehicles being able to cross bridges and no longer bouncing off each other and swerving all over the roads please.

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    Re: Starting next Round of AI Routine Improvements: Let us know what needs fixing

    Would be nice to have ai-Beau`s attack ships,
    something I can not do. They're just ignoring them..
    -with guns/bombs.

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    Re: Starting next Round of AI Routine Improvements: Let us know what needs fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by Mysticpuma View Post
    Fair enough, I have still never seen an aircraft stall into the ground as shown in that clip but I have seen plenty just crash into the ground for no reason. The clip shows an aircraft Ai losing control of the aircraft, CloD Ai just flies into the ground even when undamaged (obviously not every time but mostly when close to the ground).
    I remember that in early version of CLoD (2011) AI sometimes stall and spin to the ground. Some of Lutier "fixes" erase this.

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    Re: Starting next Round of AI Routine Improvements: Let us know what needs fixing

    The AI will also sometimes do a weird Cobra maneuver with high AoA and insane speed reduction. Mostly happens when they split S and the AI realizes "wait, I'm gonna fly into the ground".
    Having more believable AI that doesnt fly their aircraft 100% efficiently all the time would really add to the sim overall.

    Also some AI aircraft like the Bf109Fs and P-40s still love to do tons of barrel rolling when on the defensive which is just so annoying.
    I thought that was fixed in a previous patch.
    Last edited by Karaya; Oct-16-2021 at 14:06.

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    Re: Starting next Round of AI Routine Improvements: Let us know what needs fixing

    I think some of these suggestions are outside the scope of the current round of improvements. Many do not fall under 'command and control' feature.

    However, these are items that have been continually brought up as requested changes since day 0, so perhaps the suggestion is really that command and control feature shouldn't really be priority over these other things? I suspect it might be that these things just aren't possible or aren't within the capability of the current team - hence continually adjusting other things. Or it might be that they have been working on these things all along and that they're just much bigger problems to resolve. I'm pretty sure they know those things don't work right.

    That's okay. Improve what you can when you can, I say.

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    Re: Starting next Round of AI Routine Improvements: Let us know what needs fixing

    Please keep your answers relevant to the topic thread header.... which is Player commands to the AI aircraft.

    ---

    The issue with vehicle crossing bridges should be solved for the next module with the revised Channel map... and we are also looking at the traffic congestion problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mysticpuma View Post
    Vehicles being able to cross bridges and no longer bouncing off each other and swerving all over the roads please.


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    Re: Starting next Round of AI Routine Improvements: Let us know what needs fixing

    Quote Originally Posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw View Post
    Please keep your answers relevant to the topic thread header.... which is Player commands to the AI aircraft.

    ---
    Are you in the right thread? The topic of this thread appears to be: "Starting next Round of AI Routine Improvements: Let us know what needs fixing". Pretty sure there's no mention of Player commands in the title. You mention Player commands in the body of the message, but it is not really apparent from the title.
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    1 TB SSD
    LG 4K 55" TV
    Gear-Falcon General Purpose Joystick Controller, Gear-Falcon Quadrant and Trim, Gear-Falcon BF-109 Water Radiator Crank

    "Find out what you don't do well, and then DON'T DO IT!" - Alf

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