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Thread: BREDA 12.7 vs Browning 12.7

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    BREDA 12.7 vs Browning 12.7

    Why is Breda 12,7 mm so bad compared to Browning 12,7 mm? Can someone explain this to me with attaching some reports and documents? Why i think Breda sucks? Just test it yourself. Take Tomahawk and use only your 12,7 mm guns and then take C202 serie 3 or G50. I was testing a lot of belt compositions for Breda e.g. HEI-I, HE only, HEI-API, I only, API-I, API only, and it was bad all the time. Incendiary shells rarely (almost never) set something on fire. HE shells - useless. Only API shells do something but it is nothing spectacular (rarely set on fire, just help with pilot kill or venting some planes).

    It is truly frustrating and exhausting because I have experienced same situation in War Thunder for long time. I see now that Bredas MUST be weak in simulator (and semi-simulator like WT) games because "reasons".

    Another thing - Brownings 12.7 shells have nice sound effect when they hit planes, i can feel that i hit plane with something "heavy", Bredas 12.7 shells of course not :C

    If you attach WW2 or post-WW2 reports which state that Bredas were very weak i will shut up about this subject for ages

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    Supporting Member Karaya's Avatar
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    Re: BREDA 12.7 vs Browning 12.7

    There was a British comparison of the .50 Vickers (which is the same caliber/cartridge as the Italian 12.7mm) and the US .50 Browning.
    https://www.quarryhs.co.uk/Vickers.html

    Other than that I know of no wartime gun comparisons.
    What you can do instead is to compare them based on their manuals and specifications.

    The Breda 12.7mm machine gun was mediocre at best. Compared to the US AN/M2 .50Cal it fired a lighter round at a lower muzzle velocity and with a slower rate of fire. This puts the Breda at a disadvantage in all 3 categories.

    http://users.telenet.be/Emmanuel.Gus...n/fgun-pe.html

    Also the high explosive and incendiary rounds of the Breda only had ~0.8g of filler, that is not a lot.
    The German 7.92mm API round for comparison had 0.5g of incendiary filler.
    The German 13mm HEI round had a 1.2g filler, that's 50% more than the Bredas.

    In CloD I find the biggest downside of the Breda to be its rather low rate of fire which means you have to spend quite some trigger time on target.
    I disagree with your observation that its rounds do little damage. Most of my Breda kills online have been either pilot kills or a burning engine or fuel tank.

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    Re: BREDA 12.7 vs Browning 12.7

    Rate of fire is quite interesting topic because there were a lot of discussion on WW2 or games forums about 0.5 cals gun's RPM (Browning, Breda, Ho-103), which fire through propeller. One guy (greybeard) summarize his research and made mod for IL2 1946:

    https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php?topic=63290.0.

    More about problem of a significant RPM drop after synchronization with propeller here:

    https://quarryhs.co.uk/Synchro.pdf

    Citation from this document: "Some installations appeared to be even worse than this; tests of cowling-mounted .50 M2 in US aircraft revealed RoFs of 400–450 rpm, and anecdotal reports of the Japanese 12.7 mm Ho-103 (which shared the M2's Browning short-recoil mechanism) indicate a similar problem."

    In conclusion synchronized Breda Safat propably had better RoF than synchronized Browning guns. Additionally for Bredas we can easily find information that RPM was about 570 if they were synchronized.

    0,8 g PETN (filler of HE bullet, 1.3 g TNT equivalent) was good or bad we don't know, because we don't have any reliable reports about that. I was able only to find this pilot description of damage after fight with Italian fighters euipped with 12.7 mm

    https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic...ritish-report/

    If they were producing HE bullets after tests I can only assume that they were decent bullets and they were making significant damage to take down enemy aircrafts.

    For me main disadvantage of Bredas is that shells faster drops their speed. With Brownings aiming is much easier. BREDA's relatively low muzzle velocity and bullet's weight are fact. But we can't definitely claim that their bullets inflicted less damage or in case of synchronization with propeller their RPM were worse than "contemporaries" (Browning, Ho-103).

    Is there any stat-card or something about guns and ammunition in this game? Muzzle velocity on distance, RPM (synchornized, unsynchronized), penetration on distance etc.

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    TF Leadership RAF74_Buzzsaw's Avatar
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    Re: BREDA 12.7 vs Browning 12.7

    Quote Originally Posted by Dupxo View Post
    Rate of fire is quite interesting topic because there were a lot of discussion on WW2 or games forums about 0.5 cals gun's RPM (Browning, Breda, Ho-103), which fire through propeller. One guy (greybeard) summarize his research and made mod for IL2 1946:

    https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php?topic=63290.0.

    More about problem of a significant RPM drop after synchronization with propeller here:

    https://quarryhs.co.uk/Synchro.pdf

    Citation from this document: "Some installations appeared to be even worse than this; tests of cowling-mounted .50 M2 in US aircraft revealed RoFs of 400–450 rpm, and anecdotal reports of the Japanese 12.7 mm Ho-103 (which shared the M2's Browning short-recoil mechanism) indicate a similar problem."

    In conclusion synchronized Breda Safat propably had better RoF than synchronized Browning guns. Additionally for Bredas we can easily find information that RPM was about 570 if they were synchronized.

    0,8 g PETN (filler of HE bullet, 1.3 g TNT equivalent) was good or bad we don't know, because we don't have any reliable reports about that. I was able only to find this pilot description of damage after fight with Italian fighters euipped with 12.7 mm

    https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic...ritish-report/

    If they were producing HE bullets after tests I can only assume that they were decent bullets and they were making significant damage to take down enemy aircrafts.

    For me main disadvantage of Bredas is that shells faster drops their speed. With Brownings aiming is much easier. BREDA's relatively low muzzle velocity and bullet's weight are fact. But we can't definitely claim that their bullets inflicted less damage or in case of synchronization with propeller their RPM were worse than "contemporaries" (Browning, Ho-103).

    Is there any stat-card or something about guns and ammunition in this game? Muzzle velocity on distance, RPM (synchornized, unsynchronized), penetration on distance etc.
    All the data for the various weapons in the game is implemented through the game's physics engine.

    TF uses the exact muzzle velocity/round weight/explosive weight/explosive type/rate of fire as the actual rounds and weapons... this data is inputted to the game's physics engine and all rounds are treated objectively.

    It is a very obvious fact that when comparing the Italian licensed Vickers 12.7mm/.50 cal performance this round is lacking in performance when compared to the US 12.7mm/.50 or the Soviet 12.7mm. It is a simple fact of velocity/mass/explosive.

    The Vickers 12.7mm was a British Naval weapon intended as a light AAA type. It was discarded in Royal Navy use after it was shown to be insufficiently powerful against aircraft. It was replaced by the Oerlikon 20mm or the Bofors 40mm. The weapon was also used by the British in some early light tanks... but again was deemed to be insufficiently powerful... it was replaced by the Besa 15mm weapon. The Vickers was never used by the RAF as a air to air weapon... the British went straight to 20mm after the .303... the only 12.7mm type used by the RAF was the US Browning 12.7mm/.50 late in the war. The Vickers 12.7mm was essentially a failure. The Italians had access to this weapon because most of their naval weaponry originally came from Britain. They adapted it for air to air use... and continued to use it because they did not have the extensive manufacturing capability available to switch mid-war. In 1943, they adopted the German Mauser MG151/20mm as the main weapon for their later version of the Macchi as well as the later versions of the Reggiane and Fiat types.

    There is no special treatment for any particular weapon... TF bases its data on original WWII documents.

    From personal experience, I have found the most effective Vickers 12.7mm loadout is armor piercing... this round will go through most pilot armor without difficulty and kill the pilot. This is the optimum choice in my opinion. The rate of fire of the weapon and the explosive weight of the HE rounds is not enough to cause serious structural damage except in the unusual circumstance the shooter is able to place rounds exactly and for a longer duration than is typically available during Air to Air encounters.

    Load with AP, aim at the pilot. (or radiator)
    Last edited by RAF74_Buzzsaw; Nov-06-2021 at 18:23.

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    Supporting Member Karaya's Avatar
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    Re: BREDA 12.7 vs Browning 12.7

    My favourite loadout is a 50/50 mix of API and HE.
    The HE rounds have a small filler but they still seem to do a bit of splash damage, enough to make them viable.
    Going full AP/API imo is risky as it's 100% relying on you hitting something vital. Given the short time on target you'll normally get and the low rate of fire that's just a gamble.

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    Re: BREDA 12.7 vs Browning 12.7

    Yes, I just remembered another gripe of mine, nerfing the .303 guns in the early spittys and Hurris has taken a lot of the fun out of flying these aircraft, they have almost become the sole preserve of AI so few pilots fly them now. restoring some of the hitting power in a patch would be welcome. To quote Yoda "between reality and fun restored the balance must be".
    Don't let Grudges fester and poison your future happiness......get your revenge as quickly as possible.

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    Novice Pilot Pinguim's Avatar
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    Re: BREDA 12.7 vs Browning 12.7

    Haha I envy red's 8x .303 compared to 2x Bredas. It seems to have the unique capacity of setting up a nice spread pattern to hit essential parts (control cables, radiator, pilot etc.)

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