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Thread: 109 stall and roll rate!

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    109 stall and roll rate!

    Hello!

    Two things that need to be revisited by TF is the 109 stall and roll rate. The 109 was know for gentle stall with no tendency to spin. And once departed it was easy to recover. About roll rate, at speeds lower than 400 Km/h, were almost twice faster than spitfire. I do not known if the 109 is rolling less or if the spitfire is rolling faster.

    Anyone opinion about this?

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    Re: 109 stall and roll rate!

    Quote Originally Posted by talesc View Post
    Hello!

    Two things that need to be revisited by TF is the 109 stall and roll rate. The 109 was know for gentle stall with no tendency to spin. And once departed it was easy to recover. About roll rate, at speeds lower than 400 Km/h, were almost twice faster than spitfire. I do not known if the 109 is rolling less or if the spitfire is rolling faster.

    Anyone opinion about this?
    Hi Talesc,
    Have you seen this thread?

    http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.co...e-will-release

    Cheers

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    Re: 109 stall and roll rate!

    Quote Originally Posted by talesc View Post
    Hello!

    Two things that need to be revisited by TF is the 109 stall and roll rate. The 109 was know for gentle stall with no tendency to spin. And once departed it was easy to recover. About roll rate, at speeds lower than 400 Km/h, were almost twice faster than spitfire. I do not known if the 109 is rolling less or if the spitfire is rolling faster.

    Anyone opinion about this?
    109 Stall/Spin has been completely revised. (did you not watch the video?)

    Rollrates have not been changed for this patch, we want to model high speed maneuverability at the same time as we do low speed, and that requires some code work. You'll have to wait for the second release in the Spring/Summer. The 109 does roll faster than the Spitfire at low/medium speeds in the original game, although perhaps the difference is not as great as it should be.
    Last edited by RAF74_Buzzsaw; Feb-28-2013 at 19:52.

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    Supporting Member 92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)'s Avatar
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    Re: 109 stall and roll rate!

    Quote Originally Posted by talesc View Post
    Hello!

    Two things that need to be revisited by TF is the 109 stall
    This has been done. -see the TF video

    Quote Originally Posted by talesc View Post
    About roll rate, at speeds lower than 400 Km/h, [109] were almost twice faster than spitfire. I do not known if the 109 is rolling less or if the spitfire is rolling faster.
    I did some testing a few months back. I can repeat this if needed and publish some videos. At the moment the roll rates are very similar, with the 109 rolling less than 6% faster at 200mph.

    I've not been able to find a conclusive report to say that the ratio should be 2:1 though. Do you have anything to hand?

    edit: Here is, I think, the information you are getting the ~1:2 ratio from:
    bank45.gif
    Although that appears to be from the RAE report. The findings from the RAE have been pushed back against by some folks.
    Last edited by 92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P); Mar-01-2013 at 03:59.

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    Re: 109 stall and roll rate!

    Quote Originally Posted by 92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P) View Post
    I've not been able to find a conclusive report to say that the ratio should be 2:1 though. Do you have anything to hand?
    We already have the material.

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    Supporting Member 92 Sqn. Philstyle (QJ-P)'s Avatar
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    Re: 109 stall and roll rate!

    Quote Originally Posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw View Post
    We already have the material.
    jolly good show.

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    Re: 109 stall and roll rate!

    Just of note Philstyle, that graph is detailing the metal ailerons from the Spitfire, not the fabric ones. These were not introduced until early 1941 (although I have read stories of individual squadrons flying up to the factory themselves and having them done by request). The fabric roll rate is significantly worse.

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    Re: 109 stall and roll rate!

    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    Just of note Philstyle, that graph is detailing the metal ailerons from the Spitfire, not the fabric ones. ...The fabric roll rate is significantly worse.
    Roger, noteworthy indeed.

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    Re: 109 stall and roll rate!

    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    Just of note Philstyle, that graph is detailing the metal ailerons from the Spitfire, not the fabric ones. These were not introduced until early 1941 (although I have read stories of individual squadrons flying up to the factory themselves and having them done by request). The fabric roll rate is significantly worse.
    You can read about Douglas Baders squadron flying up to have them fitted at the factory in Johnie Johnsons book, 'Wing Leader'. Several months later, someone from the air ministry was angrily demanding to know who had authorised it, since no one had, and since then Bader had been shot down, he got the blame!

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wing-Leader-...2150867&sr=1-1
    Last edited by fruitbat; Mar-01-2013 at 10:22.

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    Re: 109 stall and roll rate!

    Yes I think that's where I read it, I have that book. Of course he was on Hurricanes, not Spitfires. I don't think he had it done during the Bob but after he moved to take over at Tangmere.

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    Re: 109 stall and roll rate!

    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    Yes I think that's where I read it, I have that book. Of course he was on Hurricanes, not Spitfires. I don't think he had it done during the Bob but after he moved to take over at Tangmere.
    It was in about april '41 he had it done iirc

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    Re: 109 stall and roll rate!

    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    Yes I think that's where I read it, I have that book. Of course he was on Hurricanes, not Spitfires. I don't think he had it done during the Bob but after he moved to take over at Tangmere.
    Bader flew Hurrricanes during the BoB, but he flew Spitfires later, and the example mentioned was of metal ailerons being fitted to Spitfires.

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    Re: 109 stall and roll rate!

    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    Just of note Philstyle, that graph is detailing the metal ailerons from the Spitfire, not the fabric ones. These were not introduced until early 1941 (although I have read stories of individual squadrons flying up to the factory themselves and having them done by request). The fabric roll rate is significantly worse.
    I wonder where you find information that Spitfire in these test had metal ailerons not fabric one? For me it looks like fabric ones. Moreover test between 109 and Spitfire was made in RAE from May to June in 1940. I read these raport and i didnt find there any info about metal ailerons in Spitfire.

    Spitfire MkV with metal ailerons had roll rate:
    - 200 mph - 105 deg/s -------> so about 4 second to make full roll
    - 400 mph - 40 deg/s---------> about 9 seconds to make full roll
    Last edited by Kwiatek; Mar-03-2013 at 04:36.

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    Re: 109 stall and roll rate!

    Quote Originally Posted by fruitbat View Post
    You can read about Douglas Baders squadron flying up to have them fitted at the factory in Johnie Johnsons book, 'Wing Leader'. Several months later, someone from the air ministry was angrily demanding to know who had authorised it, since no one had, and since then Bader had been shot down, he got the blame!

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wing-Leader-...2150867&sr=1-1
    What would be good if we could spawn at Hawkinge, fly to London and then have a server command (>ma?) to request metal ailerons. Then the next time you enter the server, it displays a nasty letter from the air ministry!

    camber

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    Re: 109 stall and roll rate!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kwiatek View Post
    I wonder where you find information that Spitfire in these test had metal ailerons not fabric one? For me it looks like fabric ones. Moreover test between 109 and Spitfire was made in RAE from May to June in 1940. I read these raport and i didnt find there any info about metal ailerons in Spitfire.

    Spitfire MkV with metal ailerons had roll rate:
    - 200 mph - 105 deg/s -------> so about 4 second to make full roll
    - 400 mph - 40 deg/s---------> about 9 seconds to make full roll
    For some reason that's what I remembered from somewhere, sounds like a mistake and I can't be arsed to try and find out otherwise.

    Do we have anything on Hurricane roll rate?

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    Re: 109 stall and roll rate!

    Quote Originally Posted by camber View Post
    What would be good if we could spawn at Hawkinge, fly to London and then have a server command (>ma?) to request metal ailerons. Then the next time you enter the server, it displays a nasty letter from the air ministry!

    camber
    I did a LoL, thanks Camber!

    Septic.
    [CENTER][CENTER] [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    [/CENTER]
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    Re: 109 stall and roll rate!

    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    For some reason that's what I remembered from somewhere, sounds like a mistake and I can't be arsed to try and find out otherwise.

    Do we have anything on Hurricane roll rate?
    Raport about P-36, P-40, Hurricane and SPitfire aileron control charactersitic but they tested only at 30 lbs stick force at 230 mph at 10 000 ft:

    P-36 - 43 deg/s
    P-40 - 90 deg/s
    Hurricane- 64 deg/s
    Spitfire - 63 deg/s

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    Re: 109 stall and roll rate!

    The roll rate i posted above are in fact from fabric ailerons for the spitfire. This becomes clear (that it was fabric ones) in this article: Handling Tests On The Curtis H-75, and Comparative Aileron Tests On The Curtis H-75, Spitfire and Gloster F.5/34, page 10 . But in BoB almost all spitfires were fabric, or not?

    However, the first Spitfire V with metal ailerons had the best rolling rate of all spitfires and we are talking about BoB time spitfires. Since you commented about: Are you extrapolating the 30 lbs stick force roll rate to anchieve the 105 degress/second? Is this a simple matter of extrapolating the 30 lbs to 60 lbs? What is the source (technical source, not anecdote)?

    Well i am not an aviation specialist, my formation is physics, mainly astrophysics. Acctually (after my final project) i do not work at this. I am working in Banking. However i known that is important to give sources.

    p.s.: my brother is mechanical engineer, working in aerodynamics in Zodiac Aerospace in France. Maybe you would like to contact him. I do not known if he ll be interested, i am only saying because maybe he can help.
    Last edited by talesc; Mar-03-2013 at 21:42.

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    Re: 109 stall and roll rate!

    Really interesting report. Could TF please confirm they have this one?

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    Re: 109 stall and roll rate!

    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    Really interesting report. Could TF please confirm they have this one?
    Yes, we regularly visit the British file museums.

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