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Thread: Declination from all Airplanes and Maps?

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    Exclamation Declination from all Airplanes and Maps?

    Hi Team Fusion

    can you publish the programmed values from the Declination (Planes and Maps),

    each plane has a different Declination, it is too difficult and imprecise to determine this in flight.

    For an accurate navigation it is very important to know this Declination.
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    Re: Declination from all Airplanes and Maps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Veteran66 View Post
    Hi Team Fusion

    can you publish the programmed values from the Declination (Planes and Maps),

    each plane has a different Declination, it is too difficult and imprecise to determine this in flight.

    For an accurate navigation it is very important to know this Declination.
    There are two compass "errors".

    One is the deviation: it is the difference between the geographic north and the magnetic north. In Cliffs of Dover it is 10 degrees West (as it historically was in the early 1940’s) this means that your compass reads 10 degrees to the left of the true north, so you have to add 10 degrees to your reading to get the true north. The deviation is the same for every plane, car boat, etc. On the Tobruk map the deviation is 1.5 degrees West.

    The other is declination: it is the error induced in a compass by local magnetic fields (metallic masses, bombs, guns, etc.). The declination is different for each aircraft, but also for each heading.

    In oder to determine the declination for each plane, you need to rotate your plane on the ground to known geographical headings (usually every 15 degrees), and compare the heading with the compass reading. For planes equipped with a repeater compass, the reading may be different on the compass and on the repeater compass.

    To be really accurate, you need to do this not on the ground, but flying, as the declination may also differ while in flight.

    I have published the compass correction tables for the Channel maps for the German and the British bombers in the game after testing each plane on 360 / 15 = 24 different headings. Feel free to use these tables, or do your own tests.

    Notes:
    My tables show the total correction for each plane and heading: total correction = declination (+10 degrees) + deviation (variable).
    If you just need the deviation numbers, subtract 10 to each correction number.
    To use my tables in Tobruk, you need to subtract 10 and add 1.5. But I am not sure deviation is implemented in Tobruk map (I have not tested it).

    Last edited by ATAG_Noofy; Sep-06-2022 at 01:52.
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    Re: Declination from all Airplanes and Maps?

    hi Noofy

    i like your work, but an official explanation would be good
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    Re: Declination from all Airplanes and Maps?

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    But I am not sure deviation is implemented in Tobruk map (I have not tested it).
    It is.
    :-)

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    Re: Declination from all Airplanes and Maps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Artist View Post
    It is.
    On Tobruk, Declination is implemented, Deviation is not implemented.
    As per my testing last year at least. I’ll retest in case that has changed in the meantime…



    EDIT: OK I have retested.
    In Tobruk both Declination and Deviation are implemented. In fact they are implemented in the planes themselves, so are map independent...

    Here is the correction chart for the Ju88 A5 Trop / Late on the Tobruk map:

    Ju88 A5 Trop Late - Tobruk map.jpg

    The numbers are lower than the Ju88 A5 on Channel map. This is normal because the declination is 1.5 degrees versus 10 degrees on the Channel map.
    Last edited by ATAG_Noofy; Sep-06-2022 at 14:29.
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    Re: Declination from all Airplanes and Maps?

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    I have published the compass correction tables for the Channel maps for the German and the British bombers in the game after testing each plane on 360 / 15 = 24 different headings. Feel free to use these tables, or do your own tests.
    Could you provide a link to the tables? I couldn't find them.

    Such information would be very useful to have in a manual as well.
    Last edited by Pinguim; Sep-07-2022 at 11:37.

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    Re: Declination from all Airplanes and Maps?

    Also, isn't there a constant miscalibration of the autopilot? It's indicated in the course autopilot deviation in German bombers. Feels like the plane is moving sideways a little, even with no wind (last tested with the Heinkel).

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    Re: Declination from all Airplanes and Maps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinguim View Post
    Could you provide a link to the tables? I couldn't find them.
    There you go

    Compass Correction Charts - German Bombers.pdf
    Blennheim and Wellington Compass Correction Charts - v2.1.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinguim View Post
    Such information would be very useful to have in a manual as well.
    These are not "official" documents. I did these for my own usage but am happy to share them if this encourages more people to fly and navigate on bombers

    Before publishing anything "official" it will need to go through proper testing...
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    Re: Declination from all Airplanes and Maps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinguim View Post
    Also, isn't there a constant miscalibration of the autopilot? It's indicated in the course autopilot deviation in German bombers. Feels like the plane is moving sideways a little, even with no wind (last tested with the Heinkel).
    I personally prefer using the autopilot the simple way: I preset it to North and, whenever I am flying on course, I set the intended course to N before engaging the autopilot.

    I find it is enough to read my course on the repeater compass, and/or main compass when using radio navigation, and don't feel the need to add complexity with yet a third course setting.

    In any case, the autopilot will drift slightly over time. You have to keep an eye on the repeater/compass to check that the course is still as intended, and correct accordingly. This is normal and happens in real life flying as well...

    The "simple way" and "proper way" to use the autopilot are described in the flashcards on page 4 of the Ju 88 manual
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    Re: Declination from all Airplanes and Maps?

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    In any case, the autopilot will drift slightly over time.
    What I meant is not this, but that the planes never go in the set direction. You can see it in the course deviation gauge and in comparing upper and lower directions of the directional gyro/course set. Happens in all German planes even with no wind.
    course.png

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    Re: Declination from all Airplanes and Maps?

    We must remember that CLoD is not a NASA flight simulator... It is just not perfect. One of the often overlooked issues is that of "Dip" error. If you make a change in pitch attitude, it will create a heading change on the magnetic compass. This is quite pronounced in the Blenheim.

    Therefore, I have always combined dead reckoning with pilotage techniques to compensate for this. I level off and set power for constant speed, then I set up the course guidance instrument. In level, unaccelerated flight, it is pretty accurate. Since I know the heading is going to "search" during climb, descent or speed change, I cheat before changing any pitch or power by looking straight ahead and selecting a landmark. I then fly to that landmark visually (visibility permitting).

    The axiom among instrument flight instructors "One peek is worth a thousand crosschecks" is the applied method...

    Of course this is procedural cheating but it beats ending up in Norway when I'm flight planned for France. I can usually reach an accurate IP at which time I should be back in straight and level flight for the bomb run.
    Last edited by Baffin; Sep-22-2022 at 08:57.
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    Re: Declination from all Airplanes and Maps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baffin View Post
    We must remember that CLoD is not a NASA flight simulator... It is just not perfect. One of the often overlooked issues is that of "Dip" error. If you make a change in pitch attitude, it will create a heading change on the magnetic compass. This is quite pronounced in the Blenheim.

    Therefore, I have always combined dead reckoning with pilotage techniques to compensate for this. I level off and set power for constant speed, then I set up the course guidance instrument. In level, unaccelerated flight, it is pretty accurate. Since I know the heading is going to "search" during climb, descent or speed change, I cheat before changing any pitch or power by looking straight ahead and selecting a landmark. I then fly to that landmark visually (visibility permitting).

    Of course this is procedural cheating but it beats ending up in Norway when I'm flight planned for France. I can usually reach an accurate IP at which time I should be back in straight and level flight for the bomb run.
    This compass "dip" is not a bug.
    Kudos to the developers for their accurate modelization of reality

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    Re: Declination from all Airplanes and Maps?

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    This compass "dip" is not a bug.
    Kudos to the developers for their accurate modelization of reality

    It's not a "Bug", but it is an issue. I've experienced 30 degree heading error during a Blenheim climbout which seems a little extreme to me. I've never noticed that much dip in a real plane... but then I never watched it as closely in a plane as I do in the game.

    Anyway, just another navigation consideration.
    Last edited by Baffin; Sep-13-2022 at 10:59.
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