Blitzkrieg Part Deux - Redemption!!!!

[ATAG_Marlow]

Hi Noofy...very sorry to hear about your medical emergency and I hope things are improving for you and your family. Everthing's crossed!

No, we didn't waste time looking for you. We Reds were too busy knocking out targets. We got 'em all:

Cap Griz Nez Radar

Caffier Luftwaffe Airfield

Calais Marck Airfield

...and the Calais Rail yard.......and won the map!!! Huzzah! As Jack said:'that doesn't happen very often!

Some cynical bods might say that we only won because you weren't there to spur the Blues on......but one things for certain, we did miss you!

There will be another Event very soon and 'Big thanks' to all who supported our fun and games! Salute!

[ATAG_JackMaxx]

Hope everything works out ok for you Noofy

[ATAG_Slot]

Another great evenings entertainment.
Thanks to all who set up event and gave us some rollicking good fun.

As Marlow eloquently said we managed to find some gaps in the blues defences and successfully get to all targets.

One highlight for me was to share in the successful splash of a 109 with Dazza in a dog fight with our Blenheims.
Don’t ask me how we managed it!
Lady Luck was on our side I think.


Trust all is OK with you Noofy.

[ATAG_Heggers]

Another enjoyable evening - thanks for organising...

[Cybermat47]

Damn, forgot this was on

Guess you'll just have to put another event on the 25th... pretty please?

[Karaya]

Popped on for just one sortie yesterday.

[Bonditaria]

and will Bondi have another 'marvellous time?'

Hey Snapper! Good question!

After a week of no flying (it's summer!) a strategy had to be established and stuck to: I decided to chase the first enemy aircraft I saw, whatever that might lead to. Maybe I'd chase them all the way to a British airfield, or maybe I'd get sucked into a fight with a whole bunch of enemy pilots... but I'd do it and see what happened...

It turned out that the first enemy aircraft was a Spitfire flown by you, Snapper, hence the name of the video...

[9./JG52_Meyer]

Just watched Bondis fight with Snapper above
Someone please explain to me how a Spitfire with 2 basketball sized holes in one wing and a large chunk
of one of its elevators missing still completely outurn the 109 who has no damage at all.
Am i missing something ? (Missus Meyer would say a brain for starters)
Enquiring minds wish to know.
Good vid Bondi thanks for putting it up

Hals und beinbruch

[ATAG_JackMaxx]

Snapper was driving?

[checkhov]

Just watched Bondis fight with Snapper above
Someone please explain to me how a Spitfire with 2 basketball sized holes in one wing and a large chunk
of one of its elevators missing still completely outurn the 109 who has no damage at all.
Am i missing something ? (Missus Meyer would say a brain for starters)
Enquiring minds wish to know.
Good vid Bondi thanks for putting it up

Hals und beinbruch

FM & damage for Spitfire biased or incorrect i guess?

[ATAG_Snapper]

Just watched Bondis fight with Snapper above
Someone please explain to me how a Spitfire with 2 basketball sized holes in one wing and a large chunk
of one of its elevators missing still completely outurn the 109 who has no damage at all.
Am i missing something ? (Missus Meyer would say a brain for starters)
Enquiring minds wish to know.
Good vid Bondi thanks for putting it up

Hals und beinbruch

I’ve watched this clip several times. I sustained the wing damage on the final scissors merge with Bondi (good shooting, good maneuvering, Bondi! ) whereupon I ditched into Calais harbour just seconds later. I was unable to even maintain level flight upon receiving the wing and stab damage, much less attempt to turn.

[DerDa]

FM & damage for Spitfire biased or incorrect i guess?

Luftwhining I guess.
The damage on the Spit was received very late during the fight, as is clearly visible.
All the rest of the time Bondi, excellent pilot that he is, never even tried to turn with the Spit, but did what every red pilot hates and fears: he fully exploits the huge advantages his aircraft has (better climb, better speed, better roll rate and much much better armament with much, much more ammo).
Snapper, also an excellent pilot, can do nothing but try to turn whenever the Me attacks. The one time he misjudges his timing and one or two hits with the 20mm cannon make his ac unflyable.
He would have needed several stupid mistakes on Bonditaria's side to get into attacking and he would have needed to score several dozen hits to damage the 109 in any significant way.

Biased? Come on!

[OBT~Mikmak]

Someone please explain to me how a Spitfire with 2 basketball sized holes in one wing and a large chunk
of one of its elevators missing still completely outurn the 109 who has no damage at all.

I don't see anything like that in the video... the damages you mention has been inflicted at the last face to face and this result in the Spit fall.

[Dawson]

I don't see anything like that in the video... the damages you mention has been inflicted at the last face to face and this result in the Spit fall.

A story told through flashback. It's reminiscent of Sunset Boulevard with Snapper in William Holden's role. Two thumbs up.

[ATAG_Snapper]

A story told through flashback. It's reminiscent of Sunset Boulevard with Snapper in William Holden's role. Two thumbs up.

Watching this “flashback” I remember picking up a lot of low level flak over Coquelles airfield and then Calais. I was thinking that the AA was extraordinarily accurate when it occurred to me, “Yikes - that’s a 109 behind me!!!”

[checkhov]

I don't see anything like that in the video... the damages you mention has been inflicted at the last face to face and this result in the Spit fall.

I agree, after watching the video i think that last headon undone them both Bondi made emergency landing and the Spit was never going home after that.The morale of this story is avoid headon's unless you have no other options available. Sure i will get a reply to this post but the video speaks for it's self!

[Bonditaria]

Watching this “flashback” I remember picking up a lot of low level flak over Coquelles airfield and then Calais. I was thinking that the AA was extraordinarily accurate when it occurred to me, “Yikes - that’s a 109 behind me!!!”

I did not put those big holes in your wings, Snapper. Check the slow-motion video below. Your Spitfire was coming to bits before my bullets hit you in the final frontal attack. You had taken flak damage, but didn't show it until you pulled too much G-force and things started to fall off. This sim is famous for very sophisticated damage modelling. During your final hard turn, you can see debris coming off the tail, the fuselage and then the wing before I even open fire... My left aileron seems to have hit the radio mast... I didn't expect that, I never fly Spitfires (nor do I get into turn-fights with them.) I scored 0.12 of a kill, the rest went to the ground crews!



Spitfire Ia (100oct) () (AI) was shot down by
2 cm FlaK 38,
2 cm Flak 38,
8.8 cm Flak 37,
8.8 cm Flak 37,
8.8 cm FlaK 37,
8.8 cm Flak 37,
8.8 cm FlaK 37,
8.8 cm Flak 37,
8.8 cm Flak 37,
8.8 cm Flak 37,
8.8 cm Flak 37,
4 cm FlaK 28,
Zwillingssockel 36,
2 cm Flak 38,
8.8 cm FlaK 37,
Bonditaria in a Bf 109 E-4/N (),
8.8 cm FlaK 37.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Wow! That is amazing!!!! Thanks for sharing that, Bondi.

We were in such close proximity did you get hit by any friendly flak. It was pretty intense!

[9./JG52_Meyer]

Salute all
Many thanks for your replies to my question above.
I obviously need to get my eyes tested it was indeed
Flack that did for Snapper in the end . Like i said
in my previous post about my brain and Mrs Meyer's
opinion of my lack of said organ it has run true to form

Luftwhining... now theres an old chestnut not heard for a while
by me at least . The old ones are the best aren't they, how refreshing

Anyway fellas have a great summer i am offski to Turkey on Wed for 11
days and my old bones cannot wait , might even parambulate around the
pool in my LW issue thong in RLM grey and green if i can find it.

Hals und beinbruch

[emmett_grogan]

The morale of this story is ..

"A number advantage can only be taken away from you if you lose a wingman."

Angels and Airspeed, p. 33

*del*

Guess what I mean, is :

if Snapper has a wingman, does Bondi still plan & manoeuvre for attack, or seek a new target with better odds?

if Bondi has a wingman, does Snapper survive the first encounter?

If both have a wingman, the ability of each pair to work as a team also enters the equation.

cheers

[Amarok]

I did not put those big holes in your wings, Snapper. Check the slow-motion video below. Your Spitfire was coming to bits before my bullets hit you in the final frontal attack. You had taken flak damage, but didn't show it until you pulled too much G-force and things started to fall off. This sim is famous for very sophisticated damage modelling. During your final hard turn, you can see debris coming off the tail, the fuselage and then the wing before I even open fire... My left aileron seems to have hit the radio mast... I didn't expect that, I never fly Spitfires (nor do I get into turn-fights with them.) I scored 0.12 of a kill, the rest went to the ground crews!



Spitfire Ia (100oct) () (AI) was shot down by
2 cm FlaK 38,
2 cm Flak 38,
8.8 cm Flak 37,
8.8 cm Flak 37,
8.8 cm FlaK 37,
8.8 cm Flak 37,
8.8 cm FlaK 37,
8.8 cm Flak 37,
8.8 cm Flak 37,
8.8 cm Flak 37,
8.8 cm Flak 37,
4 cm FlaK 28,
Zwillingssockel 36,
2 cm Flak 38,
8.8 cm FlaK 37,
Bonditaria in a Bf 109 E-4/N (),
8.8 cm FlaK 37.

Moin Bonditaria,

thxs for ther very good slow motion video!

[Bonditaria]

Oh good an appeal to authority!

"A number advantage can only be taken away from you if you lose a wingman."

Angels and Airspeed, p. 33

Well, that may be true, but:

"Good airplanes are more important than superiority of numbers."

Fighter Combat Tactics and Maneuvering, p. 291

and I was in the better airplane:

better climb, better speed, better roll rate and much much better armament with much, much more ammo.

and those are the number advantages that count!

if Snapper has a wingman, does Bondi still plan & manoeuvre for attack, or seek a new target with better odds?

Yes I would have attacked:

A strategy had to be established and stuck to: I decided to chase the first enemy aircraft I saw, whatever that might lead to.

if Bondi has a wingman, does Snapper survive the first encounter?

The strategy would have been quite different in this encounter if I had a wingman:

"The commanding officer is responsible for seeing that neither he nor any of his pilots are surprised by the enemy. If he cannot see to that, he is no good as a leader."

Fighter Combat Tactics and Maneuvering, p. 272

If both have a wingman, the ability of each pair to work as a team also enters the equation.

Rarely if ever do I fly with a wingman:

"The fighter pilot is an independent character. He doesn't like too many people around him. He is an individualist."

Fighter Combat Tactics and Maneuvering, p. 292

I can literally count the number of times I've flown with a wingman in this game, on one finger. You know what happened then? I lost him in the sea due to my bad planning!

cheers

Spoiler: 

[Bonditaria]

I’ve watched this clip several times. I sustained the wing damage on the final scissors merge with Bondi (good shooting, good maneuvering, Bondi! ) whereupon I ditched into Calais harbour just seconds later. I was unable to even maintain level flight upon receiving the wing and stab damage, much less attempt to turn.

If you look at the video at 0:38 or so, where I am flying above/behind you and you fire your guns you can see that your starboard wing guns don't fire - that's the wing that will show visible damage on the next turn... I was racing to get a bullet into your plane before the ground fire got all the points. Of course I took friendly fire damage... but I didn't notice it while it was happening, only after I left the plane after landing and the game server disposed of it...

Spoiler: 

[emmett_grogan]

Oh good an appeal to authority!

Heya 8~)

It's likely your resources are far better and more relevant than mine; I'm still on Tiger Moth pilot's notes and the "Pilots' Information File", 1944 revision *grin*

Clear, also, that your knowledge, experience and abilities as a fighter pilot will leave me flailing in yr prop-wash, if it comes to that; on the flip side, I have much more than you to learn from this discussion, hope you'll forgive if I persist.

There's much for me to learn both from DerDa's assessment, and watching those principles in action in your clip (very much admire your execution in this engagement); I recall reading "Turn, turn, turn!" somewhere in these pages, as a Spit pilot's sole recourse, but doesn't this reinforce the need to fight with numbers, for the Brits? How else to fight to advantage?

Acknowledged, that a degree of the 'rebel spirit' is required for a fighter pilot (there's a little of that in me, too), but an extra pair of eyes (and ears to contact reports) increases the odds of spotting an e/a; LW tactical doctrine & the finger-four were enough to force a re-think by the RAF.

I find the Richthofen quote a tiny bit harsh - the leadership quality I would look (and strive) for is the ability to make the right tactical decision, at the right time. Flying as a solo, surely the range of available options in any situation must be reduced?

Forbes, in A&A, quotes Boelcke ("Always continue with an attack you have begun") and Hartmann ("If you do attack, make it in one single pass and immediately disengage.."); perhaps, as with Richthofen, Boelcke's advice has been superseded to a degree by advances in aircraft technology as well as practical experience - very grateful for your thoughts.

Ack'd, also, that your strategy for the mission was pre-determined, and that you would have attacked regardless of numbers. This seems a unique case, tho', and it's the general principles that I'm trying to figure out.. 8~)

As for 'bad planning' - well, no, actually. I disagree (can you believe it?!).

The plan was sound. The issue, for me, was communications; it took me a couple of days to even transmit a message clearly. We both recognised the risk, but you acted on it - the lack of available comms. on the day precluded that info from being distributed, but if I'd gambled on an extra 10%, I'd have been under your t/o weight, able to keep pace and still made it home.

Anyways, it was a lovely day for a swim.. 8~)

cheers!