Event operation retribution rematch

[OBT~Polak]

It's really good to have this kind of discussion, I think everyone has some truth to it. It's hard to please everyone and create events that are fun to fly for everyone. The blues, the reds, fighter and bomber pilots, I completely agree that the ITAF campaign was the most fun event I have attended in my young career as a simulator.
In a few days we will start promoting a new campaign based as much as possible on the historical events around the aldertag. The campaign will take place on August 13, 14, 15 and 16, 1940. This will consist of a large AI bomber raid over England. The blue piotes will have to escort and the red ones to intercept the escort and the bombers.
This imposes precise altitudes and meeting times for the blues as well as agreeing to stay close enough to the bombers to be able to support them in the event of an attack (a situation that can be difficult for a pilot of 109 or 110) , which is bound to happen as the British radars guide the reds towards the bombers. I think this is the closest thing to historical reality.
If you have any suggestions to try to improve the missions, I am listening to you, the goal being that as many pilots as possible take pleasure in participating. Secondary objectives will be available for pilots who wish to only do bombing and a second raid will start a little later for pilots who are late or who were shot down a little too early in the game. Here are the solutions that I have found for the moment so that everyone has a little fun.
Stay tunned more info will come soon
All apologies for my poor English

[334th_Padre]

Well Padre here's the wierd thing last week we had the same event and it lasted for at least 3 hours. I think it's down to turnout, which is a quite difficult to predict.
If you balance the mission for let's say 40vs40 and you get a turnout of 30vs30 then it's doable but if you get 20vs20 it begins to stretch.
On the other hand if you balance for 20vs20 and you get a turnout of 40vs40 it gets very crowded and turns into more of a brawl.
So this introduces an element of pure luck depending on when the turnout matches the numbers the mission was balanced for.

I would love to get my hands of some sort of after action report with players and a timeline to better analyze these events.


The only two ways I know of to compensate for variable turnout is dynamic objectives (where objectives become available according to a timer and/or number of players online) and good interhuman communication.

1. Dynamic objectives. I'm pretty sure there are technical limitations here but this is what I've seen done on other multiplayer games and I'm sure you guys have encountered them aswell.

2. Good interhuman communication. I've experienced this mostly in FPS games. We need an MC. The briefing that gets released before the event has two or more sets of objectives according to server population. Starting from the maximum turnout with the highest number of objectives you "fall back" to lower numbers when population is low. The MC determines the objective tier according to time and/or population and announces it in ALL CHAT.


On the other hand I think I got my first air kill against a human in an online flight simulator so my opinion is most likey not the best informed.


Thank you for organizing these events guys I look forward to each and every one!!!

I think people are missing the point of my comments.

To have 8 different targets spreads the fight out, making for unrealistic battles and increased potential for no or very little action.

Even with 40 vs 40 numbers, not really even seen in recent years, concentrating those players into just a few target areas increases the chances of action happening.
This makes for larger and more realistic battles as the bombers try to get through, the fighters are forced to cover, and the defenders have a chance of intercepting something.

It also provides for scenarios of 15 vs 15 right up to 50 vs 50 so is not dependent on numbers. You also have to accept that in reality, bombers would have had a very high chance of being intercepted, due to Chain Home, Freya and Coastal Observation posts. It's very much an accepted part of Bomber Crew life.

[checkhov]

I think people are missing the point of my comments.

To have 8 different targets spreads the fight out, making for unrealistic battles and increased potential for no or very little action.

Even with 40 vs 40 numbers, not really even seen in recent years, concentrating those players into just a few target areas increases the chances of action happening.
This makes for larger and more realistic battles as the bombers try to get through, the fighters are forced to cover, and the defenders have a chance of intercepting something.

It also provides for scenarios of 15 vs 15 right up to 50 vs 50 so is not dependent on numbers. You also have to accept that in reality, bombers would have had a very high chance of being intercepted, due to Chain Home, Freya and Coastal Observation posts. It's very much an accepted part of Bomber Crew life.

But if you narrow it down to 1or 2 targets then the map will roll very quickly and we are back to square one if you want quick furballs i would recommend dangerdogz server, zero immersion bit hey ho still a gas lol

[OBT~Polak]

Well Padre I completely agree with your point of view, I hope this upcoming campaign will allow you to have fun. Keep in mind that the first raid is the main objective of the mission where I hope we will see the most pilots and the most action!!! The question for me is whether I would fly blue or red... in your camp or against you and your formidable wingman Hartmann for good dogfifht as always

[checkhov]

It's really good to have this kind of discussion, I think everyone has some truth to it. It's hard to please everyone and create events that are fun to fly for everyone. The blues, the reds, fighter and bomber pilots, I completely agree that the ITAF campaign was the most fun event I have attended in my young career as a simulator.
In a few days we will start promoting a new campaign based as much as possible on the historical events around the aldertag. The campaign will take place on August 13, 14, 15 and 16, 1940. This will consist of a large AI bomber raid over England. The blue piotes will have to escort and the red ones to intercept the escort and the bombers.
This imposes precise altitudes and meeting times for the blues as well as agreeing to stay close enough to the bombers to be able to support them in the event of an attack (a situation that can be difficult for a pilot of 109 or 110) , which is bound to happen as the British radars guide the reds towards the bombers. I think this is the closest thing to historical reality.
If you have any suggestions to try to improve the missions, I am listening to you, the goal being that as many pilots as possible take pleasure in participating. Secondary objectives will be available for pilots who wish to only do bombing and a second raid will start a little later for pilots who are late or who were shot down a little too early in the game. Here are the solutions that I have found for the moment so that everyone has a little fun.
Stay tunned more info will come soon
All apologies for my poor English

An old saying goes you can please some of the people some of the time,but you cant please all of the people all of the time! but i think OBT Polak is going to please most of us with Aldertag. Looking forward to your event bravo!!

[334th_Padre]

But if you narrow it down to 1or 2 targets then the map will roll very quickly and we are back to square one if you want quick furballs i would recommend dangerdogz server, zero immersion bit hey ho still a gas lol

I don't see any logic in your comment.
Read my posts. It clearly states fewer target locations with a higher density of targets, so they are not destroyed so quickly, just to make it blatantly clear if it wasn't already.

As for wanting furballs, everything I've said in my posts indicates that's not what I'm asking for. Do try reading them before making assumptions you cannot substantiate.

And Dangerdogz, that's not even a realistic server. Your suggestion is comical at best.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Folks, discussion is good and the feedback is excellent.

I will stipulate that comments be civil and eliminate the snark.

Thanks.

[DerDa]

I have flown bomber many times in the past, especially He-111 on Channel and BR.20 in Africa (in ITAF events). In quite big formation. We had always fighters in cover.
The nice thing about flying a bomber is knowing you have a fighter escort ready to defend you, and coordinate with them. This increases teamwork, immersion and therefore fun.

I know you fly bombers. My remarks were not directed at you personally, but just meant to show that there are different preferences and it is hard to cater for all of them with one mission.

I agree that a fighter cover is nice to have on a bomber raid, but usually you will find rather few who are willing stay with you for a boring duty and put themselves into a defensive position. Typical Circus raids were composed of " usually formations of 20 to 30 bombers escorted by up to 16 squadrons of escort fighters" (Wikipedia) which would be more players than fit on a server. If you are lucky on a server you get one fighter with five or six bombers, making all of them easy prey. And yes, flying bombers was dangerous, but in reality losses of 20% were regarded as unacceptable while the bomber/fighter ratio in Cliffs Missions will frequently wipe out 100% of attacking bombers.
For targets at the other end of the map Hurris and Spits lack the necessary range. If escorting a low alt Beaufighter strike they make themselves extremely vulnerabe for other fighters and Hurris will slow you down.

@Noofy: at least on TWC radar Beaus are 'fighters'. It doesn't change a thing that you are pretty helpless when caught by a single engine plane. This is perfectly realistic, Coastal Command had to learn this after heavy losses.

Again: I am not complaining or attacking anybody. Indeed I am very thankful for everyone who is involved in the creation of these events.

[ATAG_Noofy]

Of course getting organized into bombing squadrons and escorting fighters is ideal. Alas this requires large numbers of disciplined pilots (I am not one of those...).

But one can nonetheless prepare for each mission, adapt tactics and strategy, and still have lots of fun. Having a good overview of the situation helps a lot.

Let us take this mission for example.

We can start researching the forum. We would find this link: https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.c...ht=circus+time

There we would learn that this mission was intended to split the map (for each side) into two distinct areas, one for bombers and one for sturmoviks.

We would also get exact locations and aerial views of the targets.

Let us look at the potential strategies for both sides. Let us plot targets (with respective game points) for both sides, as well as potential attack routes (by looking at bases with their different aircraft types and linking those with bombers to the targets). Let us plot all this on a map to better visualize:


2023-08-28_103155.jpg


Blue have 3 targets suitable for bombers totaling 120 points, and 5 targets suitable for sturmoviks totaling 90 points. So 8 targets with 210 points in total to chose from to reach the 150 required points.

To win, Blue MUST get at least two of the Bomber targets. These are pretty much concentrated in a 70 x 70 km quadrant, and there are two potential attack routes for bombers. By patrolling aver Portsmouth Red fighters would easily spot them. In the past two rounds I systematically took all 3 blue bomber targets, leaving 30 points to my sturmovik comrades to flip the map. I never encountered a single red fighter in that region of the map to stop me...

Red have 4 targets suitable for bombers totaling 150 points, and 6 targets suitable for sturmoviks totaling 130 points. So 10 targets with 280 points in total to chose from to reach the 150 points. Already a non-negligible advantage over Blue team...

To win, Red MUST get at least one of the Bomber targets. Bomber targets are more spread in a 120 x 100 km quadrant, and there are 5 potential attack routes. So a bit more challenging that for red team, but by patrolling over Rouen Blue fighters would relatively easily spot red bombers. In the past two rounds I am not sure if any red bomber ever tried to make it this far?

Red have more choices, more potential targets, more total potential points. Their targets are more spread geographically, and there have more potential attack routes which makes it much more challenging for the blue fighters to intercept red bombers. So sorry but no excuses, Red should have wiped Blue flat out with their fingers in the nose

[ATAG_Snapper]

Heggers and I took off in Wellies from Ford; Heggers was headed to Rouen Industrial Park (40 points) and I for Creil D20 Factory (50 points). Unfortunately I had a computer glitch (thank you Windows 11) causing me to lose my USB peripherals and Teamspeak (I could hear, but not transmit). It took me 45 minutes to reboot, reset my peripherals & TS, and get back into the air.

Heggers dropped on Rouen; no score came up. With my late 2nd attempt I was in visual sight of Creil when Blue won and the mission ended (THAT I did not anticipate - it was a first AFAIK). Sorry to disappoint on a number of fronts.

Regrettably, I have no scripting ability and our ATAG coder is away on walk about. Obviously we'll shelve the Circus Time mission that Rematch was based upon until we can remedy this premature mission shutdown.

We have some interesting missions coming up that I think will please almost everyone....so stand by!

[DerDa]

Of course getting organized into bombing squadrons and escorting fighters is ideal. Alas this requires large numbers of disciplined pilots (I am not one of those...).

But one can nonetheless prepare for each mission, adapt tactics and strategy, and still have lots of fun. Having a good overview of the situation helps a lot.

Let us take this mission for example.

Yes Noofy, again you are correct ... under the assumption that all pilots flying for one side have the goal to trun the map.
But again, some people have other preferences. They don't care about 'their side' or points or whatever. They just want a quick dogfight or blow up some target.

And that's fine as long as they have fun.

Generally, I have the impression that the disciplined, coordinated approach with well structured plans and chain of command might be a tad more popular with the blue side, while the reds tend more towards joyfully enthusiastic anarchy.
It doesn't help the 'side' but, who cares as long as all have fun?

[brunov]

Hi every one,
In order to provide feedback on this last meeting, here is my opinion: I find it positive but know that some players in our group would have liked more action and combat. This is how we cannot please everyone.

Our raid:
We chose to carry out a raid in Beaufighter on a target counting 40 points, the industrial complex of Rouen. For technical reasons (command settings), one of our players could not take a beaufigther. So he took off from Littlestone in a Spitfire and our somewhat restricted group left Wilmington with 3 beaufigthers. We flew together to Rouen. Luckily, we did not encounter the opposing hunt. Only the flack welcomed us!
We spotted the bombardment zone (BR8), our leader designated a target for us at each of the 3 Beaufigthers, we all delivered our 500kgs of bombs to 3 different factories. But that was not enough to validate the 40 points of the target.

As an aside, a question to the mission designer, is it the low tonnage (1500kg) that invalidates the 40 points? The area is huge and may require a raid of several Wellingtons?

After bombing, we decided to head north in fighter mode. This is where we likely encounter the hunters reported by 5th Hellrider in his first post. Our Spitfire, running out of fuel, was forced to land in an enemy zone, the 3 Beaufigthers did their best but were shot down.
As you can see, we were able to play bombing and hunting.

In the final analysis, I am a young pilot who has been flying Cliffs of Dover for about a year but I think everyone should adapt their strategy to what they like in order to find the most pleasure.
I approached CoD like other aerial combat games and in solitary mode whereas as Noofy demonstrates, it is more of a strategy game, (excellent demonstration on your map of the different choices of attack or defense).
I am convinced that the briefing should be used to the maximum.
Finally, as our boss tells us (tirelessly) it is in a team that we fly, each one watching his teammate. And it's not a game but a SIMULATOR!

We have everything to coordinate, TS or Discord, it's up to us to choose and organize ourselves.

I don't know how long writing a mission takes but it must be quite important. Let's not be too critical or demanding of those who are preparing these missions for us.

We really have everything to play, the map, the mission of Snapper, the fabulous scenarios of Marlow, and the players; Let's take advantage of it!
Thank you to the volunteers of Atag and those of TFS

I am using Google Translate

[ATAG_Noofy]

Generally, I have the impression that the disciplined, coordinated approach with well structured plans and chain of command might be a tad more popular with the blue side, while the reds tend more towards joyfully enthusiastic anarchy.

Lol. I was under the exact opposite impression. Just check the TeamSpeak server and you'll see all (most) red pilots on the same channel, while blue pilots would be scattered among several channels, if at all online. Yes we do some coordination over in-game chat box, but it is very limited. Usually a bomber requesting for cover, and getting it 1 out of 4 times depending on relative position of fighters...

[5th Hellrider]

Many people on the same ts channel often mean nothing, especially if the players are not all flying together (which they often do). As you mentioned before, flying together and coordinating requires a certain habit of doing it. Otherwise there are more disasters than anything else. 4 players for a ts channel is enough. For a greater number, whispers would be needed, or a realistic radio system like in DCS. And here too, to prepare the whispers you have to get organized in advance, it's quite difficult to do it at the last minute. Chat works well too, but few use it and, strange but true, many don't know there are different chats (all, friend, enemy, vicinity).

We're all pretty much saying the same thing: a lot depends on the players mentality and how they want to have fun. And this is a subjective thing.

Surely focusing the action somewhere specific on the map would force people to coordinate more if they want to attack (or defend) the objectives.
The pic map posted by Noofy is a good example of what I mean by "scattered". Even with a completely full server there would be no action in many places.

However these latest events have been a big step forward: for the first time players on ATAG server are playing to complete objectives. Before it was just a continuous vulching on closest enemy bases.
So we are going on the right direction

PS: do the cover is maybe the most fun thing for a fighter pilot.

[ATAG_Heggers]

Thanks to all involved in running and planning the events... They are fun (but challenging)... There's a lot of potential here I think for a very enjoyable event.

As Snapper said, we took 2 wellies out to hit Rouen and then Creil. We had a decent number of chaps supporting us with fighters. We were coordinating on TeamSpeak. It took about 45 minutes to fly out to Rouen from Ford, navigation was easier thanks to the radio. The target is listed as a single square on the map (industrial area of Rouen). As I approached, I could see that there were factories and refineries to the south of the river bend. It seemed to be quite a large area. I dropped as soon as I crossed the river, so hitting the industrial area on the eastern bank of the west side of the bend. I didn't get any credit for hitting the target (but maybe I dropped short - a common event during wartime raids ). If anyone knows exactly where the target is in Rouen, I'd love to know (and also how you find out where it is). In a previous event, we dropped from 4 Wellies on Rouen but didn't get any credit - not sure if this is an issue with recording hits, or maybe we just bombed the wrong location.

I turned and flew back to Wilmington, thus getting the kite back safe. Perhaps I should have bailed and respawned to start another run, but I didn't know whether that is frowned on. Maybe a future improvement would be credit for getting plane and crew back from a raid.

I then started another Welly run from Wilmington but by the time I was mid channel, the game was over.

As I said, I really enjoyed it and it is great meeting up with everyone and planning tactics. I definitely will look forward to future events, and hope we Reds can make it a bit more of an even fight.

[ATAG_Noofy]

If anyone knows exactly where the target is in Rouen, I'd love to know

There you go

IMG_3597.jpeg

(and also how you find out where it is).

Read my post #39 above for the link to the mission’s details…

[ATAG_Heggers]

Thanks Noofy - btw, how were you able to find the Rouen aiming point?

[ATAG_Noofy]

Thanks Noofy - btw, how were you able to find the Rouen aiming point?

It was posted by the author of the mission here: https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.c...l=1#post367650

[ATAG_Heggers]

It was posted by the author of the mission here: https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.c...l=1#post367650

That makes it a lot clearer! Thanks... Not that it will be my next target if we ever replay the map..

[Barone]

It was posted by the author of the mission here: https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.c...l=1#post367650

These are great info especially for the bomber lads. These should be posted when annoucing the event on forums!

[ATAG_Noofy]

These are great info especially for the bomber lads. These should be posted when annoucing the event on forums!

The same old debate: should you give someone a fish or should you better teach him how to fish?
All the info (and much more) can be found in the forums.
And the "search box" is your friend.
Gathering intelligence is part of the fun (afaiac).

[ATAG_Heggers]

These are great info especially for the bomber lads. These should be posted when annoucing the event on forums!

i agree. It would definitely make events more fun for everyone if we knew exactly where the aiming points are. I've been involved in at least two sorties where we thought the target was 'Industrial Area Rouen', and dropped there, without knowing that there was a specific aiming point. It was a bit disheartening for all when we scored 0 points for this drop.

Now that I know that the targets can be listed in forum posts from a couple of years ago, I can search and make sure we have all the information before starting.

[brunov]

We need to create an intel cell !

And a Noofy hunting squadron !!!

[ATAG_Noofy]

We need to create an intel cell !

And a Noofy hunting squadron !!!

Intel cell yes.

Noofy hunting squadron, I am not so sure this will move the schmilblick forward...

[5th Hellrider]

Personally, I think that the objectives (the precise aiming points) should be well shown and easy to access. Also because at the beginning of the topic we had a very detailed list of planes/bases, I don't see why it shouldn't be like this for targets.

I'm used to reading them clearly in all the campaigns/events I've done. Even in Pernix's missions (which I often collaborate on) we try to make them as clear as possible.

Often people is lazy, and while there is a chance to use search in forum, few will.
Making things simpler, in my opinion, always works. And let's consider that we come from a previous situation where many players were used to vulching or doghfighting low and in the middle of the Channel. So helping them understand what to do in a simple and direct way could be a good idea.

After all, other sims even have targets marked on the map.

[Barone]

The same old debate: should you give someone a fish or should you better teach him how to fish?
All the info (and much more) can be found in the forums.
And the "search box" is your friend.
Gathering intelligence is part of the fun (afaiac).

I'm sorry but no. I can't agree on that.
Those are not some kind of info that you need to acquire during the mission.
Those are basic briefing information that are essential for the match. People should read always the briefing and briefing should always be completed.
And what if I'm a player who don't read this forum but I know about the event from other places like Facebook or the BOS forum.

I honestly can't understand that.

[ATAG_Noofy]

I'm sorry but no. I can't agree on that.
Those are not some kind of info that you need to acquire during the mission.
Those are basic briefing information that are essential for the match. People should read always the briefing and briefing should always be completed.
And what if I'm a player who don't read this forum but I know about the event from other places like Facebook or the BOS forum.

I honestly can't understand that.

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