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Thread: Adlertag campaign mission#3 Saturday December 2 at 20h00 GMT on Atag server.

  1. #31
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    Re: Adlertag campaign mission#3 Saturday December 2 at 20h00 GMT on Atag server.

    My debrief:

    First of all, a big thank you to all the pilots who participated in the battle!!!

    We took off from Kenley in a Hurricane from 501 Squadron at 16h12HRS heading French point, Objective to intercept the He 111 raid...

    Red leader OBT~Mikmak
    Red two OBT~Polak
    Red three OBT~Lionel
    Red four OBt~voss

    16h35HRS we are vertical French point, The two pairs of Hurricane move away from each other to patrol a larger area.

    16h37HRS Red leader say: (I have a tally on a huge formation of He 111), We are too low and decide to turn around and gain more altitude.

    We take the same heading as the bombers and climb into their 12 o'clock

    16h40HRS We are well positioned but the escort fighters are present in large numbers and I ask myself the same question as good old Marlow... but where are those damn Spitfires!!!

    Probably toasting with the girls at the officers' mess!!!

    16h44HRS Red leader and Red two at 9 o'clock high of the bombers, Red leader sends me a radio message : (DIVE on these damn bastards!!!)

    I dive full throttle, I take a look at my leader on my right and announce to him: (Bandit in your six!!! hot)

    Calmly he tells me: (I'm going on your left, shoot him down!)

    I can't align this He 111... and i take visual from my leader, and tell him the bad news : (you have two yellow noses behind you now!!!Break and come under me so I can get you out of there!!!)

    This is the moment I saw tracers around me... and a big bang hits my poor Hurricane...

    A 20 millimeter shell just broke my aileron controls... I'm Zombie...

    I dive towards the Littlestone airfield, I see the friends of the 501 squadron moving away as quickly as the battle raging above me...

    My leader tells me that a Bf 109 is diving on me to finish me off, I push on the stick and avoid his attack...

    It seems obvious that the Luftwaffe pilots are determined to come for tea without being invited!!!

    I manage to land in Littlestone and listen to the rest of the fight on the radio... Red leader and red three parachute and red two join me in Littlestone with a lot of damage...

    Congratulations to all the blue pilots who escorted the He 111 raid, you did a remarkable job gentlemen!!!
    It was absolutely impressive to get up close to you and your bombers!!!

    I think that for mission #4 we will try to be a little more organized on the red side and engage you all at the same time!!!

    A great battle is coming...
    Last edited by OBT~Polak; Dec-03-2023 at 18:18.

  2. #32
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    Re: Adlertag campaign mission#3 Saturday December 2 at 20h00 GMT on Atag server.

    I am Leader of the second pair. (Red 3)

    We moved away from Red 1 and 2 to flank the formation of H1 111.

    We heard on the radio that red1 and 2 were engaged by 109s.
    We couldn't do anything, we were too far away and no We don't have any visuals on them.

    I decide to continue engaging the H 111s.
    No way to do it, Red 4 is engaged by a 109. Warned in time, he clears and avoids the bullets.
    We reformed and went back to attack the He 111s.

    This time, it was 2 Me 109s who engaged us.
    We put ourselves in a defensive circle and wait for the storm to pass.
    That's not enough, let's both take some lead.

    Fortunately the Littlestone mess is not far away, a good beer and let's go back into battle.

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    Re: Adlertag campaign mission#3 Saturday December 2 at 20h00 GMT on Atag server.

    Quote Originally Posted by OBT~Polak View Post
    My debrief:

    .. but where are those damn Spitfires!!! Probably toasting with the girls at the officers' mess!!!


    It seems obvious that the Luftwaffe pilots are determined to come for tea without being invited!!!


    I think that for mission #4 we will try to be a little more organized on the red side and engage you all at the same time!!!

    A great battle is coming...

    A great write up and some excellent conclusions drawn by our OBT Boys! Yes, they had the same problems hitting the bombers and we must agree that the escorting 109's did exactly what they were supposed to do. Herr Reichmarshall would have been delighted! But the Hurricanes probably suffered more because the Spitfires had already hit the bombers and were on their way home, either damaged or to re-fuel/re-arm.

    Yes, I agree, Polak. In Adlertag Mission 4 it would be great if we Reds can make a more concerted effort to hit the enemy at the same time.....so that we can better support each other. Getting all RAF aircraft to the right place at the right time was a real problem back in 1940, too, but maybe Sir Keith Park was a more disciplined strategist than us?

    We Spitfire pilots decided that we could reach Boulogne faster from Manston. The trouble was: I don't think Hurricanes were available at Manston and that helped to split us up. Maybe Adlertag 4 will make it possible for Spitfires and Hurricanes to spawn together at the same airfield or at least, airfields that are close to each other.

    Next time we must come up with 'a wizard wheeze' that will get us to the battle area ...all at the same time! Another great battle? Excellent! Bring it on! Salute!
    Last edited by ATAG_Marlow; Dec-04-2023 at 12:13.

  4. #34
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    Re: Adlertag campaign mission#3 Saturday December 2 at 20h00 GMT on Atag server.

    Perhaps having the bombers a tad lower (say 6k or even 5 instead of 7.5) would be better for all.

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    Re: Adlertag campaign mission#3 Saturday December 2 at 20h00 GMT on Atag server.

    Clyde and I flew 2 109s.
    We immediately joined the bombers to escort them and were surprised to see the RAF already ready to attack our Henkels on the French coast.
    At that moment a high Spitfire dove on Clyde, who managed to avoid it thanks to my call. It was a very risky situation.
    Then we scared some enemy fighters by trying to push them away.

    On the English coast, still following the bombers box, we sighted two Hurricanes that were coming up to attack them. We attacked them forcefully, alternating in-out. One Hurricane was hit on the tail and went a deadly flat spin. The other was hit hard and loses most of her left wing; the pilot tried to take it home, but we didn't follow him down. It is unlikely that he will have returned.

    This fight makes us lose sight of our He 111s, so, being also with half fuel, we decided to move towards Calais, passing South of London. We found a lone Spitfire that was making altitude to intercept the bombers. We attacked him and Clyde manages to hit him quickly. The English pilot dove away at high speed, but at a certain point he decided to parachute (maybe he was heavy damanged).

    The last part of our sortie takes place between the Channel and Calais.
    On the way home we have spot some returning Henkels, attacked by 4 Spitfires. We decided to defend them with the last few liters of fuel available and despite our numerical inferiority. For a few minutes we managed to be offensive, even if we then had to run home at full speed, followed by the 4 fighters. Luckily they didn't follow us onto the airbase.
    We landed at Calais with the red reserve light on.

    Nice mission, for sure. See you next time!

  7. #36
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    Re: Adlertag campaign mission#3 Saturday December 2 at 20h00 GMT on Atag server.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5th Hellrider View Post
    Clyde and I flew 2 109s.
    We immediately joined the bombers to escort them and were surprised to see the RAF already ready to attack our Henkels on the French coast.
    At that moment a high Spitfire dove on Clyde, who managed to avoid it thanks to my call. It was a very risky situation.
    Then we scared some enemy fighters by trying to push them away.

    On the English coast, still following the bombers box, we sighted two Hurricanes that were coming up to attack them. We attacked them forcefully, alternating in-out. One Hurricane was hit on the tail and went a deadly flat spin. The other was hit hard and loses most of her left wing; the pilot tried to take it home, but we didn't follow him down. It is unlikely that he will have returned.

    This fight makes us lose sight of our He 111s, so, being also with half fuel, we decided to move towards Calais, passing South of London. We found a lone Spitfire that was making altitude to intercept the bombers. We attacked him and Clyde manages to hit him quickly. The English pilot dove away at high speed, but at a certain point he decided to parachute (maybe he was heavy damanged).

    The last part of our sortie takes place between the Channel and Calais.
    On the way home we have spot some returning Henkels, attacked by 4 Spitfires. We decided to defend them with the last few liters of fuel available and despite our numerical inferiority. For a few minutes we managed to be offensive, even if we then had to run home at full speed, followed by the 4 fighters. Luckily they didn't follow us onto the airbase.
    We landed at Calais with the red reserve light on.

    Nice mission, for sure. See you next time!
    The first two Hurricanes you engaged were Red 3 and Red 4 I think, and the 4 Spits on the way back were the OBT~, our second outing. I would like to congratulate you on maneuvering your Bf 109 absolutely well. Too dangerous to continue the pursuit over France, I had my water radiator pierced by flak... I managed to return to England by gliding, land in a field at English point escorted by the rest of the group.

    Great fight gents

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    Re: Adlertag campaign mission#3 Saturday December 2 at 20h00 GMT on Atag server.

    Thanks, man! Your tactics were also good, it wasn't easy to manage your Spitfires. At a certain point we simply had to run.

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    Re: Adlertag campaign mission#3 Saturday December 2 at 20h00 GMT on Atag server.

    Great fun yesterday!
    I wanted to experience the raid from within a large bomber formation.
    I air-spawned into a He-111 at 7500m a little to the south of Boulogne.
    I was early. No sign of the bomber formation, so I did some racetrack holding patterns above Boulogne waiting for them.
    One, then two, then several contrails showed up.
    Flying in solo or in pairs.
    Fighters. Friends or foes? A quick glance and I saw the yellow of their noses. Bf109's.
    After a while the large formation appeared to my east, co-altitude.
    I maneuver to merge in when suddenly I get a black screen. A Spitfire just crashed into me... Ya well...
    So I respawn and head 310 towards Croydon, trying to catch up. I never managed and stayed 5-10 km behind.
    I start to program my bomb sight with the correct parameters: altitude, true air speed, no wind.
    The Lotfe7 can only be set up to 6000m. We are at 7300m. So I need to compensate by exaggerating my True Airspeed.
    Good opportunity to do some maths...
    Thank God I had a good autopilot, and the enemy fighters are attacking the big formations and are not paying attention to me...
    My navigation was good because Croydon appears just where it should be in my bombsight.
    I engage the bombsight automation.
    The crosshairs remain centered on the middle of the target. This means my trigonometry extrapolations were good
    The hangars render in. They are to the south-east of the airfield.
    A couple of adjustment clicks on the autopilot and bombsight elevation, and I center my crosshairs on the hangars.
    I drop all my 32 bombs in series mode, 10 meters between each bomb.
    I jump into my ventral gunner seat from where I can see the bombs explode on the hangars below me.
    All hangars are destroyed. Yesss!
    Time to go back home.
    I look for the large formation. I see it to the north of Gravesend. It is split into smaller groups in a general heading of 150 towards French Point. I merge into one of them.
    The 109s were with me on the radio the whole time. Good to feel protected.
    Above Hawkinge I hear them warning me on the radio about a Spit lining up on me. I jump into my rear gunner seat and shoot back. The 109s are here too and scare him away.
    But I got hit by some bullets in my left engine which is now losing oil and water that I can see trailing from my rear gunner position.
    I jump back to the pilot seat.
    I am losing RPM on the left engine.
    I go through my checklist: feather propeller, throttle back, fuel cock off, magnetos off, radiators closed, rudder trimmed to the right.
    I am feet wet off of Folkstone at an altitude of 7000m. The French coast is visible on the horizon. So I set course to Marquise West.
    The glide on one engine goes without problem. I am in a shallow dive. No enemy fighters in sight. Smooth landing. Pfuuh!
    Time to change to a fighter.
    I look for G.50s. No G.50s. Whaat?
    So I opt for a 109/E4.
    I take off from Coquelles. There is a Spit vulching. Just in front of me. I shoot. I hit. I am too low. I lose control. I crash.
    A few more sorties with more or less success. A few kills. A few flat spins.
    Cannot fly these 109s. I want my G.50 !!!
    Great fun for sure !!!
    Thank to the OBTs for a great mission
    Looking forward to #4.
    Last edited by ATAG_Noofy; Dec-05-2023 at 01:21.
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  10. #39
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    Re: Adlertag campaign mission#3 Saturday December 2 at 20h00 GMT on Atag server.

    Gentlemen, the sun set on this day of August 13, 1940...

    It's time to debrief on the evening of the first day of the Adlertag.

    Here is what I noted for mission #3: At the height of the battle there were 46 human pilots, 24 from the RAF and 22 from the Luftwaffe.

    I counted 21 victories for the RAF and 15 for the Luftwaffe, All blue pilot victories are enemy fighters, conversely the vast majority of red victories are bombers shot down.

    The He 111 raid targeted the airfields of Kenley and Croydon, the Ju 87 Stukas raid targeted Rochester airfield.

    At Kenley two maintenance hangars were destroyed and the runway was slightly damaged.

    At Croydon the bombing was much more precise and the runway was seriously damaged, the two fuel depots were destroyed as well as three hangars, 1 Hurricanes and 1 Wellington destroyed on the ground.

    At Rochester German dive bombers destroyed 9 Wellingtons, 1 Hurricane, the fuel depot and damaged a hangar, which brings the number of aircraft lost by the RAF to 27 today...

    In total for the day of August 13 and the first three missions of the Adlertag campaign, we had a total of 196 human pilots and 186 AI bombers participating in the combat.

    Luftwaffe lost 100 aircraft, the RAF 91 aircraft including 20 aircraft destroyed on the ground.

    It's extremely difficult to say who won this third round on Saturday evening but I find that the blue pilots have a much more difficult job to do and they did it with a lot of courage and organization, they managed to escort their bombers on all the objectives while losing few hunters, in my opinion they got the victory in this third episode!!!

    But the second day of the Adlertag is near and the Luftwaffe will launch even more planes to attack Great Britain and we Reds will organize ourselves more coherently to welcome the invaders!!!

    The great final battle has only just begun...and as our Prime Minister said WE WILL NEVER SURRENDER!!!

    Hoping that you enjoy participating in this campaign and hoping to see more of you for mission #4

    See you very soon above the Channel gentlemen
    Last edited by OBT~Polak; Dec-04-2023 at 20:23.

  11. #40
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    Re: Adlertag campaign mission#3 Saturday December 2 at 20h00 GMT on Atag server.

    Thank you for the detailed debrief Polak it really ties things together!!!

    From my point of view the best way to determine a “winner” would be to play the historical card.

    The way I see it the overall objectives of the campaign, in keeping with its historical inspiration, are:
    - the destruction of RAF capabilities for the blues
    - the infliction of unsustainable losses on the bomber force for the reds

    If we take these overarching objectives into account then for this round the blue’s objective was to do as much damage to their ground targets as possible with great emphasis on the airfields. The red’s objective was to do as much damage to the attacking bomber force as possible.
    Because an inoperable airfield is a pretty huge problem for a defending force I believe that the blue’s airfield objectives (the ones targeted by the air raids) should account for at least 75% of “match objectives” even if there are 10 secondary objectives. Losing a tire factory is bad but losing an airfield and its facilities while trying to prevent an invasion is exponentially worse.
    According to these considerations then the blues would have:
    25% - Croyrdon (pretty much inoperable in a short and medium timespan)
    8% - Kenley (2 hangars and a couple of potholes is not much)
    10% - Rochester (as far as I know a fuel depot is not easily fixed or replaced and they cut pretty heavily into airfield capabilities when it comes to how many sorties they can handle ‘n such)
    This puts them at 43% of match goals accomplished considering 0% for secondary objectives which I’m not sure is accurate.

    Now for the reds the best way to count success would be what percentage of the attacking force was destroyed. The most basic wiki numbers puts historical German air losses at about 75%. So we could consider reaching a 75% destruction of the bomber force the main objective for the reds. Seeing how the whole point for the reds is attrition I would count the secondary objectives as being worth 5% each at most. So 75% destruction of the bombers would be worth 90% of match objectives. At a 30% destruction of the bomber force which is the highest I would dare to guestimate, we get:
    30% - bombers that went boom (a generously red-biased guestimation)
    5% - I believe the radar stations survived. I haven’t seen them on fire
    This puts reds at 35% of match goals accomplished which is quite far behind the blues even if I fudge the numbers in their favor.

    This is my opinion on a fair evaluation of hostilities that is also true to the historical roots of the campaign. Win or lose these events are absolutely glorious!!!

  12. #41
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    Re: Adlertag campaign mission#3 Saturday December 2 at 20h00 GMT on Atag server.

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    The 109s were with me on the radio the whole time. Good to feel protected.
    Good report Noofy and nice that the microphone is working again!
    Gruß Amarok

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    Re: Adlertag campaign mission#3 Saturday December 2 at 20h00 GMT on Atag server.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amarok View Post
    Good report Noofy and nice that the microphone is working again!
    It is working on TeamSpeak
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    Re: Adlertag campaign mission#3 Saturday December 2 at 20h00 GMT on Atag server.

    Quote Originally Posted by SchiopulCiung View Post
    Thank you for the detailed debrief Polak it really ties things together!!!

    Win or lose these events are absolutely glorious!!!
    Chung took the words right out of my mouth!

    I'm also really enjoying everybody's detailed descriptions of the sorties they undertook. It's great to get other people's...and perhaps especially the 'other sides'.....viewpoint! Keep 'em coming Polak! Salute!

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  18. #44
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    Re: Adlertag campaign mission#3 Saturday December 2 at 20h00 GMT on Atag server.

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Noofy View Post
    It is working on TeamSpeak
    It only works with Teamspeak and not with Discord? Very strange!
    Gruß Amarok

  19. #45
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    Re: Adlertag campaign mission#3 Saturday December 2 at 20h00 GMT on Atag server.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amarok View Post
    It only works with Teamspeak and not with Discord? Very strange!
    It probably works on both but I never used discord voice before as I am more used to TS with TS-Notifiyer set up and running perfectly…
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