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Thread: Spin Recovery -- Bf109E and Spitfire MK 1, 1a, 2a

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    Spin Recovery -- Bf109E and Spitfire MK 1, 1a, 2a

    Hi

    Was trying out the 109E last night for the first time and it occurred to me that in the New Pilots thread there isn't anything on Stall Recovery. Its amazing what occurs to you as you tumble from about 20,000ft.

    With that in mind, how about a bit on stall recovery because I think its quite a common occurrence when you're learning - hell, sometimes I think my planes default defensive posture when being shot at is to turn round and round really quickly!

    Anyway, link to the 109E recovery thread is here:-

    http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.co...ead.php?t=3398

    The Spitfire recovery (apparently also works for Hurricanes) I use is like this:-

    Let go of control stick (or move it to the center position) and cut throttle back to idle.
    Apply opposite rudder to direction of spin. IE spin to the left, apply full right rudder.
    Move stick very slowly forward until the spin stops. If it doesn't stop center stick and try again.
    When spin stops, apply throttle and pull back gently on stick to resume level flight.
    If this doesn't work and it looks unrecoverable, drop gear then flaps to see if that changes the attitude of the aircraft - has worked for me a few times.
    Bail out and walk back to the airdrome and take the time to work out a story about how you were jumped by 4 109E's but you still managed to shoot 3 down.

    I'm open to suggestions about other stall recovery techniques and if you have any for other aircraft then add it here and we'll see if that nice Mr Lewis can update the post.

    Cheers
    Alan
    Last edited by Loopback; Aug-17-2013 at 20:44.

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    Re: ..Lew.. Another suggestion for the New Pilots Thread

    Rgrt Loop...its a nice idea however for me I think thats part of the learning of the aircraft rather than something to get folks up in the air as a basic....We need the guide to be short and concise and cover the basics..not be too long and daunting....I think its a little too long as it is..but I couldn't see anything to omit.......and...I think learning of the aircraft is an imprtant part of the enjoyment....it is for me...The beginners guide initially was something just to get new players off the ground and in the combat zone...let them figure out the rest as they play, on comms and such...I can see what you mean though...and its not totally up to me...what do you reckon?..

    You've only been here 5 minutes and already I can see you're a clever thinker and very valid part of this community...and I've only been here 10 minutes myself!!!...

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    Re: Spin Recovery -- Bf109E and Spitfire MK 1, 1a, 2a

    Hi guys,

    Excellent info here on spin recovery that we all have to do -- sometimes several times in one sortie. I took the liberty of relocating it here, changing the thread title to match the OP subject, and I've stickied this thread so it will stay a little easier to find and reference.

    Thanks fo this, Loopback.

    Cheers,

    Snapper


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    Re: Spin Recovery -- Bf109E and Spitfire MK 1, 1a, 2a

    Salute

    For Release 2, the major fighters have all had their stall entry/spin characteristics modified to better reflect the historical aircraft.

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    Re: Spin Recovery -- Bf109E and Spitfire MK 1, 1a, 2a

    Thanks for the heads up, Buzz. We'll edit accordingly and touch base with you on it.


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    Re: ..Lew.. Another suggestion for the New Pilots Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by FS~Lewis View Post
    Rgrt Loop...its a nice idea however for me I think thats part of the learning of the aircraft rather than something to get folks up in the air as a basic....We need the guide to be short and concise and cover the basics..not be too long and daunting....I think its a little too long as it is..but I couldn't see anything to omit.......and...I think learning of the aircraft is an imprtant part of the enjoyment....it is for me...The beginners guide initially was something just to get new players off the ground and in the combat zone...let them figure out the rest as they play, on comms and such...I can see what you mean though...and its not totally up to me...what do you reckon?..
    The only thing I was thinking was that when you're new to this kind of thing, the impulse is to bank and pull hard on the stick when you see someone behind you. This will almost always result in a stall. I found this really frustrating when I was playing IL2 back in the day and I stopped flying for a while. I eventually persevered and got over it and learnt to fly better (still stall out on occasion). You are absolutely right though when you say let them learn that kind of thing for themselves because thats what I did. Just thought it might alleviate some of the frustration for a real newbie just long enough to get them hooked.

    But then again, where do you stop with these guides. You'd end up writing a book and that would put some people off!

    Think you've done a fantastic job with the guide so I think we should keep this separate.

    Snapper, thanks for moving somewhere more appropriate.

    Buzz, great news about version 2. Wait... does that mean I'm going to stall more. Guess I'm going to have to invent a mod that gives my plane a parachute! Can't wait to see the work TF have done - you guys are the real people keeping this little world of ours going.Thanks.

    Alan

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    Re: Spin Recovery -- Bf109E and Spitfire MK 1, 1a, 2a

    I have spun for real i.e. not deliberately I was gliding and trying to stay in a very narrow thermal and I let the speed drop which caused the nose to drop a bit.
    Thermalling is a very intense operation, not the lazy fun it looks from the ground so, still focused on the thermal, I unconsciously corrected by gently easing the stick back which caused the speed to drop which I unconsciously corrected by easing the stick further back...you see where this is going? Suddenly I was brought out of my fixation on the thermal by the fact that my stick was in the bottom left corner of the box and my nose was still dropping I was hanging on the edge of a stall while banked over at 60 degrees! Whoosh!
    I brought it out in little more than one rotation though and it's all good training. It's also nice to know your reactions are right when it does happen without warning.
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    Re: Spin Recovery -- Bf109E and Spitfire MK 1, 1a, 2a

    Quote Originally Posted by Roblex View Post
    I have spun for real i.e. not deliberately I was gliding and trying to stay in a very narrow thermal and I let the speed drop which caused the nose to drop a bit.
    Thermalling is a very intense operation, not the lazy fun it looks from the ground so, still focused on the thermal, I unconsciously corrected by gently easing the stick back which caused the speed to drop which I unconsciously corrected by easing the stick further back...you see where this is going? Suddenly I was brought out of my fixation on the thermal by the fact that my stick was in the bottom left corner of the box and my nose was still dropping I was hanging on the edge of a stall while banked over at 60 degrees! Whoosh!
    I brought it out in little more than one rotation though and it's all good training. It's also nice to know your reactions are right when it does happen without warning.
    OMG. Sounds like you had fun. Guess its totally different when you cant just just press ESC and start again!
    Is the recovery process similar to above, ie oposite rudder and crossed fingers?

    Alan

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    Re: Spin Recovery -- Bf109E and Spitfire MK 1, 1a, 2a

    Quote Originally Posted by Loopback View Post
    OMG. Sounds like you had fun. Guess its totally different when you cant just just press ESC and start again!
    Is the recovery process similar to above, ie oposite rudder and crossed fingers?

    Alan
    Yes except you have that extra 'over the top in a rollercoaster' thrill and a bit more swearing
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    USAF Single Spin Recovery

    Deleted. Not applicable to CLoD aircraft.
    Last edited by Baffin; Feb-11-2020 at 09:16.
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    Re: ..Lew.. Another suggestion for the New Pilots Thread

    @Alan

    I like your thinking, always good to see folks churning some cogs on how to make things better....

    As for the stalling...when I get bounced (in the spit) I tend to push hard forward....try it if you have alt...this cuts power unfortunately but I've had great success with it..You disappear under the nose of the enemy for a short while and in that time you can wing over and even snap roll away...you are less likely to stall too as you are pushing forward into the dive....I do still stall sometimes but that too is not a big problem if you can correct it quickly...There's still no time for the enemy to go for their second pass before you are diving away like a scolded cat......
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    Re: Spin Recovery -- Bf109E and Spitfire MK 1, 1a, 2a

    Wow, this thread started out as a how to recover from a spin but ..Lew.. has indicated that a spin could be an actual defensive manouver. The one thing that history has taught me is that the spit (sorry the Murcury engine) never pushes forward because you loose power due to the infamous gravity fed fuel feed problem. But maybe in our world this can be a defensive manover.

    Id love to see a 109 drivers point of view.

    Cheers

    Alan

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    Re: Spin Recovery -- Bf109E and Spitfire MK 1, 1a, 2a

    Quote Originally Posted by Loopback View Post
    Wow, this thread started out as a how to recover from a spin but ..Lew.. has indicated that a spin could be an actual defensive manouver. The one thing that history has taught me is that the spit (sorry the Murcury engine) never pushes forward because you loose power due to the infamous gravity fed fuel feed problem. But maybe in our world this can be a defensive manover.

    Id love to see a 109 drivers point of view.

    Cheers

    Alan
    You are a bit late; the 109s are already aware of the spin as a defensive maneuver. It is very common to see a 109 enter a spin and pull out at the last minute just when you thought it was all over. OK, you might put that down to just taking a long time to recover and being lucky to pull out in time but they also seem to have the ability to flick into a spin and come right out again without losing more than 100ft. Perhaps a 109 pilot could confirm if that is just the 109 being prone to high speed stalls that can be can be caught quickly or if it is a deliberate tactic? I have to admit that I did it in a spit on Thursday, I spun at 500ft and managed to catch it again barely a second later, but it seems the 109s do it a lot.
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    Re: Spin Recovery -- Bf109E and Spitfire MK 1, 1a, 2a

    I spun out in a Spit over the channel and in a bloody cloud to boot. Got it back but could not tell you how. I think I used the method of Cut power, kick opposite and stick down but would not bet my (real) life on it. You forgot to say when to re apply power Loop.
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    Re: Spin Recovery -- Bf109E and Spitfire MK 1, 1a, 2a

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefRedCloud View Post
    I spun out in a Spit over the channel and in a bloody cloud to boot. Got it back but could not tell you how. I think I used the method of Cut power, kick opposite and stick down but would not bet my (real) life on it. You forgot to say when to re apply power Loop.
    Good catch Chief. I've just fixed up that mistake.

    Roblex, done the same myself and come out so low, I turned my spit's prop into a lawn mower! It was just after take off and didn't have much speed (or alt) but had to bank hard because a 109 dived on me.

    Alan

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    Re: ..Lew.. Another suggestion for the New Pilots Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Lewis View Post
    Rgrt Loop...its a nice idea however for me I think thats part of the learning of the aircraft rather than something to get folks up in the air as a basic....
    It's basic, and necessary, stall recovery is one of the very first things you are taught in real pilot training. In the game it's the thing that's going kill new players the most. Standard procedure for props with explanation:

    1: Throttle to idle (because if your wings aren't generating lift the throttle is just contributing to the spin, and bringing you to the ground faster)
    2: Neutral stick and full opposite rudder relative to the spin. (The rudder will generally be the only control surface that is not stalled)
    3: Once you regain control of the aircraft, increase the throttle and raise the nose to return to level flight.

    If the above doesn't work, or you cant get the nose down (certain less common stalls like death spins where the tail is fully stalled as well), try revving the engine to produce torque to break you out. Lowering gear or flaps is interesting I havn't tried that, though I could see how it could work in the game, nice thought! I'll give that a try.

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    Re: Spin Recovery -- Bf109E and Spitfire MK 1, 1a, 2a

    I know this is an old thread, but I wanted to say that I use a forced spin when I am being closed on for the kill shot, especially when they come in with backup.

    It forces an overshoot and the enemy has no idea which way I am going to go so they can't compensate for it. I know how to recover from it, and if I have a course in mind for an escape afterwards, I can look for the horizon and I know that I can recover in 1-1 1/2 revolutions in most cases. The element of uncertainty can mean the difference of being hit or coming out alive.

    Then again, I always seem to be riding the edge of the stall in case I need the maneuver. Maybe I rely on it too much.
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    Re: Spin Recovery -- Bf109E and Spitfire MK 1, 1a, 2a

    I've demonstrated and instructed spins in the Cliffs of Dover Spitfire rather extensively since my last post and would like to share my observations:

    FOR PRACTICE:

    The RAF rule of no intentional spins below 10,000' AGL is a real good idea. If your first recovery gives you trouble, you can try again. If it's successful, you can do one or two more spins before altitude becomes critical. You can even experiment with intentionally incorrect procedures for your own personal training, but get serious about recovering when below 5,000'. (As per the 1940 Pilots Notes)

    Practice extended spins with gear and flaps UP, all spins with the radiator shutter OPEN. This is the normal configuration for the slow flight entry.

    1. At 10,000', trim the clean airplane for 160 MPH, or 0.3 units aircraft nose down (AND). Stop trimming.

    2. Throttle IDLE.

    3. Propeller FINE (Fast, forward)

    4. Increase back pressure, using rudder and aileron to maintain heading and wings level. When full AFT stick is reached, the airplane will roll uncontrollably, probably to the LEFT. Maintain full aft stick with NO aileron input. The Spitfire may spin, depending on your rudder position, or it may enter a spiral dive.

    5. To assure a true spin entry, smoothly apply FULL rudder in the direction of the spin. If you want to spin in the opposite direction for any reason, simply apply the opposite rudder, but keep the elevator FULL UP (Back) with neutral ailerons. We can't really feel centered ailerons in our simulator, so look out at the wingtip and find what neutral really feels like on your joystick. You are now in a spin!

    6. Simulators allow you to take a few seconds to see what's going on, so look at the rate of rotation and the oscillation of your pitch attitude. After spinning for a few turns, smoothly take your feet off the rudder pedals (Stick still full AFT) to observe the "Developed" spin. The Spitfire continues to rotate since the outboard moving wing is in a less stalled condition than the inside wing. The inside wing has more drag due to its almost fully stalled condition thereby causing the continued rotation.

    7. Finally, you can slowly reduce back pressure on the elevator to a "Hands OFF" state. If you're lucky (or unlucky, depending on your point of view) your Spitfire will continue to spin. This is the fully developed spin which may progress to a "Flat Spin", but most likely will spontaneously recover and start a nose low spiral after a few turns. In a balanced, undamaged Spitfire, I have been unable to cause either a sustained, flat spin or an inverted spin. In my opinion, a normal Spitfire just won't enter these conditions without intentional pilot input or some kind of significant damage.

    8. The fully developed spin requires a true spin recovery procedure but the nose low spiral recovery is simply a rolling, high speed dive recovery (roll wings level and pull up). The true "Flat Spin" may be unrecoverable according to the pilots notes, requiring a dangerous parachute exit from the doomed aircraft. The reasons for the development a flat spin are threefold: Power, center of gravity, and finally, airplane damage.

    Power: If the throttle is providing thrust, then it most likely is increasing the rate of rotation. You can observe this by entering a practice spin while adding power instead of reducing it. By manipulating the throttle while spinning, you can really "Wrap up" a Spitfire into a high speed flat spin. Try it... it's great fun!

    Center of gravity (CG): If, for any reason, the CG is too far forward, most of the weight is aft. This condition makes it harder to drop the nose, an essential element in breaking any stall (A spin is an autorotating stall). In the Spitfire, structural damage is the only way I can think of to alter the CG, unless you're carrying some kind of cargo behind the seat. (Two cases of French wine, your girlfriend, etc.)

    Airplane Damage: Obviously, forward structural damage like having your propeller shot away, can impact the CG. More importantly, structural damage, especially to flight controls may prevent recovery from any spin. If you cannot seem to recover from a spin above 5,000', look around to find missing stabilizers or control surfaces. This will make the decision to bail out much simpler!

    9. Recovery: Most spins will recover if you just release the stick, take your feet off the rudders and watch the houses get bigger for a few seconds. Supermarine designed it that way. If this doesn't work, you need to execute a spin recovery:

    Throttle - IDLE.

    FULL RUDDER - Smoothly apply opposite the spin direction (Opposite the turn needle) and hold it until rotation stops.

    DOWN ELEVATOR - ONLY AFTER THE SPINNING STOPS - Center the rudder and smoothly apply forward stick to break the stall. Recovering too early can cause wild gyrations that can incapacitate the pilot. If the elevator is not effective, you must assume that control has been lost due to a broken cable or other mechanical problem. A last-ditch effort is to trim the elevator nose down and increase power to let the propwash flowing over the trim tab force the nose down. Below 5,000' AGL, BAIL OUT!

    RECOVER FROM THE DIVE - Check Airspeed-At 150 MPH MINIMUM, apply UP elevator. Applying backpressure before 150 MPH may result in a secondary stall or spin and must be used only to avoid ground contact.

    FOR TRAFFIC PATTERN SPINS:

    1. Configure the Spitfire with gear and flaps DOWN.

    2. Simulate YOUR final turn with YOUR trim and airspeed preference.

    3. Increase bank and back pressure until the airplane STARTS to spin. (Snaps over)

    4. Recover. This sounds easy but actually is the step that will kill you if you haven't practiced it. The natural tendency in the traffic pattern is to add power, while the spin recovery procedure is THROTTLE - IDLE. If done properly, a Spitfire can be recovered with about 600' altitude loss. If you do everything right you may still have to settle for a hard, off runway landing due to the low altitude in the pattern. Final turn spins have historically been a major cause of pilot fatalities for military and civilians alike.

    TAKE-AWAY

    Spins are a fun pastime after the mission ends and you're waiting for a game restart. Practicing them may help prevent demotion to the dreaded TYRO status!
    Last edited by Baffin; Feb-11-2020 at 09:12. Reason: Flight School Area has updated version of this.
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    Re: Spin Recovery -- Bf109E and Spitfire MK 1, 1a, 2a

    Spin Recovery --------> Fiat G50


    Step 1: Jettison Canopy

    Step 2: Bail out!


    That's it.

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