Level Bombing in the Blenheim

[Jimbop]

This might be in the wrong thread but currently dissuading me from using the Blenheim on ATAG 1 is the position of the airfield. It's too frustrating warming one up only to be strafed on the ground. Is it possible to ground start a Blenheim further North? I do use the air-start occasionally but it is less rewarding.

ATAG 1 is currently very difficult for the Blenheim. I agree that Littlestone is not a logical field for a Blenheim ground-start since you are far too vulnerable. I did four starts from here yesterday in the Blenheim and had an enemy fighter hovering nearby (probably Lympne) on three of those. I managed to evade but it would be better to start inland.

I have high hopes for both ATAG 1 and 2 for the Blenheim - see Bliss' posts from here in the second server thread. Maybe it would be good to make Littlestone the air start for quick cross-channel dashes and an inland base a ground start.

On another note, I managed to get a fighter escort on one attempt yesterday. A relatively new pilot (I'm ashamed to say I forget his name) but he served his purpose admirably in getting shot at by a 109 as I was taking off! Getting a fighter to tag along is much more immersive.

[Jimbop]

Cross-post, Knuckles! Yes, going south is a very sound strategy from Littlestone. You only need to go down about 10 miles to make a big difference to the rest of the run.

[ATAG_Knuckles]

FYI to all:

If you haven't seen it in the other posts I now have a profile for both Turret and bomb aimer positions. I am anxious to see what difference it make to have a live person in that rear turret. So if you see me on comms/ATAG server give me a holler and I'll join as gunner


Knucks

[Jimbop]

Hey Knuckles, great fun getting shot down with you today! Getting a human gunner/pilot combination going is highly recommended. Adds enormously to the realism.

[ATAG_Knuckles]

Here's an example of the view you can get from the turret: Gotta work on aiming that .303.

2012-01-04_00001.jpg2012-01-04_00002.jpg2012-01-04_00003.jpg2012-01-05_00001.jpg2012-01-05_00002.jpg

Sorry you were killed JimBop ! I promise I'll do better next time ????????

Knuckles

[Jimbop]

No problem, at least you didn't burn the engine on takeoff. A slight case of forgetting to open the radiators!

[ATAG_Knuckles]

Got a request here gang:

so far I havent been able to locate the German Vehicle Brigade located at L12.6

I certainly know I get creamed with flack over the airfield of Saint-Inglevert.

Just dont see any Vehicle Brigade


Knuckles

[Jimbop]

The targets are actually on the Saint Inglevert airfield. There are three groups of ground units: one is AA and the other two are vehicles.

[ATAG_Knuckles]

got it thanks: I'll have to steal a JU-87 and do some spy recon.




Knucks

[Jimbop]

Yes, that's what I did with a 109. Actually landed on the airfield and drove around.

[LOWnSLO]

For those that missed my introductory post, I'm reasonably familiar with the operation of the real life Course Setting Bomb Sight (hereinafter referred to as the CSBS), but haven't installed CoD so have no idea how much of its functionality is modeled in the sim.

First off, thanks for the excellent level bombing videos posted in this thread and congratulations on the accuracy shown - that is indeed about as accurate as an actual drop could hope to be .

Now let the questions begin:
number 1 - is wind modeled in CoD? If not, bomb aiming is GREATLY simplified. If it is present, then a bit more complexity is added (which the CSBS can cope with if the proper adjustments are available).

Next, looking at the attached picture, how many of the adjustment knobs labeled on the right side are actually functional in the sim?

From the videos I can see that the height above target (not in photo), wind direction (not the right term, but let's use it for now) and True Air Speed all work, what about the others? I've also labeled the wind speed knob, which also isn't in the photo - it should be just under the front sight slider; it's attached to a short wind speed bar which is linked by gears and shafts to the ring on the compass and should rotate in parallel with the compass ring when the wind direction knob is rotated.

Lastly, I noted some comments regarding the need for an artificial horizon. You can use the bubbles in the lateral and longitudinal levels to know when the bombsight is perpendicular in both horizontal planes - in the photo its almost level in the longitudinal plane (just a bit nose high) but the lateral level shows that the right wing is quite a bit too high for an accurate drop. Can someone check if there are any adjustments for these (should look like a couple of old fashioned water tap handles to the lower left side of the CSBS) - would be gravy if they are present and work as that would allow trimming the bombsite level for any state of aircraft trim. If they aren't then the aircraft will have to be trimmed to level the bombsight on the bomb run.

cheers
Lo

[Dutch]

Hi LownSlo

Wind is modelled, but it's up to the mission designer as to how much to put in etc.


The controls for the bombsight are currently;

Decrease/Increase Course setter (your 'wind heading' adjuster)

Decrease/Increase Sight velocity (your 'TAS')

Adjust sight right/left (your 'enemy speed')

Decrease/Increase sight altitude.


Your 'Enemy Heading' and 'Trail' don't currently function, and the adjuster you have annotated with 'enemy speed' is the 'adjust sight right and left' wheel.

I'm fairly sure that's it. It's impossible to see the left side of the sight in the game to look for your 'taps', and the 'wind speed' adjuster doesn't appear to be present.

However, there are some anomalies present in the sim, i.e. you may have noticed IAS being entered into the sight rather than TAS. People were falling short if TAS was entered.

If you have a lot of experience with this stuff, your input would be most welcome!

[ATAG_Knuckles]

LOWnSLO

I'll attempt to answer the best I can: The bombsight modeled in the Blenheim is the "Wimperis Mk IV. I have some info starting at post 7 of this thread.

No 1 wind is not modeled however there is a working adjustment on the Bomb Sight

the photo I have in those posts show which features are usable, If I remember altitude, air speed, drift (wind) course setter. Indicated air speed is what we use as we dont have temperature to calculate TAS.


The big However at this point: is !!! all of this is moot as the way the Blenheim is modeled, about two miles from the target, the target is completely blocked by the pilots instrument panel AND the bomb aimers panel. So you spend over 30 to 45 minutes climbing to altitude only to find you have no way to accurately line up the target. You get the same results by using a low level technique at half the time. Several of us have spent considerable amount of time on this i.e. me, Jimpob, Dutch, and have shelved it for the moment. So you best option at this point is get in the sim, get one of us to check you out in the Blenheim (its a bugger to learn) then you can start helping us out in the best way to set it up

Hope this helps

Knuckles

[LOWnSLO]

Thanks for the quick replies.

Wind is modelled, but it's up to the mission designer as to how much to put in etc.

OK, this is kind of a "good news/bad news scenario". Good news in that at least the world being modeled is a bit more realistic and pilots may have to do a bit of navigating. Bad news is that, it doesn't sound like the CSBS is modelled anything remotely like it should be, so the "Course Setting" part of the CSBS is FUBAR.

The controls for the bombsight are currently;

Decrease/Increase Course setter (your 'wind heading' adjuster)

So this doesn't do anything but spin the compass ring around?! Well, that's as useless as mammary glands on a boar - it needs to be connected to the wind bar so the sight can compute drift in a crosswind.

Decrease/Increase Sight velocity (your 'TAS')

OK, sounds like this might be working (allthough I hope it really is TAS not IAS - see comment below). Their name is bit of a misnomer as velocity is a vector needs both speed and direction, this only adjusts the speed component - may sound like splitting hairs but the CSBS is a vector computing bombsight, so if one (or more) of the vector inputs is incorrectly modeled, it don't compute (garbage in, garbage out).

Adjust sight right/left (your 'enemy speed') ...Your 'Enemy Heading' ...doesn't currently function, and the adjuster you have annotated with 'enemy speed' is the 'adjust sight right and left' wheel

hmmm - speed without being able to set direction again makes this vector setting useless. Not sure why they bothered (other than maybe it was easy to code?) - although if there was any function we could do without it's the enemy vector - only used for bombing moving targets like ships at sea and trains and was frequently omitted on installed sights.

Decrease/Increase sight altitude.

YAY! Something that appears to be a bit like the real sight. Except I hope you meant height above target instead of altitude.

Your ...'Trail' doesn't currently function...

No adjustment for trail means that above the height at which a bomb reaches critical speed (air friction equals force of gravity) the bomb will fall farther and farther beyond the aiming point (its falling slower than predicted)

It's impossible to see the left side of the sight in the game to look for your 'taps', and the 'wind speed' adjuster doesn't appear to be present.

Ah well, just going to have to get LOTS of practice trimming the plane to fly level as possible. If there's no wind speed adjustment then can't set sights for any crosswind drift - more bad news.

...anomalies ... IAS being entered into the sight rather than TAS. People were falling short if TAS was entered.

Hmmm - are you sure about this? If true this this would be a real problem. It would means the sight is likely accurate only at one altitude - without, of course any clue as to what that might be. Makes the sight almost useless as you might just as well aim off a grease pencil mark on the windscreen. There are a number of other reasons bombs might be falling short - will look into it when I get the sim installed.

@Knuckles: Yeh, I could see from the videos that the bomb aimer's view is pretty obstructed at the worst possible time. So I take it there's no control to duck yer head up/down to look over/under the bar? Bummer! Your right, looks like I'm gonna hafta get the sim and get my dainty little pinkies dirty futzin' wit this gizmo. Tied up for the next few weeks so it may be awhile - maybe there'll be some patches before then (two weeks, tops :inq.

cheers
Low

PS, just out of interest, has anyone any idea how approachable the devs are to fixing the bugs, like say I give them the blueprints and manuals for a CSBS Mk IXA (which I think is what they're trying to model in the Blenheim) to work from?

[Dutch]

Haha!

The terminology I use is the terminology used in the game/sim, I make no claims to personal expertise!

But you're right, the best thing to do is get the game and have a bash. I'd be happy to take you up in the front seat online whilst you get to know the sight's foibles.

The Devs have been working on a major patch for the sim for some months now. It's possible that many currently non-functioning aspects may be corrected either then or in a future update.

[Jimbop]

Yes, fingers crossed for good things in the patch. I found the spirit level bubbles quite difficult to use due to glare. I didn't persist with them though and started using the horizon instead.

[ATAG_Bliss]

GJ tonight you blemmy pilots

You kicked our butts!!!

[Dutch]

GJ tonight you blemmy pilots

You kicked our butts!!!

:laugh1

Yep, 'fraid so! Knuckles and I took out the Fuel Depot, then he and Snarglepuss went North for the 88s whilst I took out the tanks. Gotta love it!

We thought we were up against it when Doc, Borris and Keller were all flying bombers though, plus one guy in a BR20.

Phew!

[ATAG_Knuckles]

We actually had quite a conversation on Ts concerning The proverbial "Doc : Borris : Keller" group. knew we didn't have much time

Thats what is gonna keep this sim alive (along with the great graphics)

Great challenge:


Knuckles

[Biggus]

I've struck a problem in my use of the Blenheim. I've got roughly 70 hours on it so far, and it's been a never ending learning experience. Most of my sorties are anti-shipping, and I've found that a shallow level bombing run from 2500ft along the axis of the ship works better for me, rather than skip bombing.

Anyhow, long story short, I'm trying to use it from higher altitude now than I was before. I just tried the air start on server 1 (which in itself is quite a challenge in that initial ten seconds - immediately going full coarse pitch and opening the radiators, then adjusting boost) and headed for the Ju88s at Oye-Plage.

My problem is managing to keep the oil warm enough when I fly over 5000ft. I tried a few things. At one point, I had 3.3psi on the boost gauge (any higher than that and I'd start shuddering), prop pitch at 5% (again, max without shuddering) and cowl flaps roughly 35% open, with cylinder head temps hovering around the 240 degree mark. At this speed, I was able to maintain 190mph at 7,500ft, with a very slight climb. Ordinarily, I'd have been quite happy with that, but I was having a serious problem with oil temperature, which had dipped below 30 degrees.

I also tried to throttle back to about 1.6psi and close the cowl flaps to about 25%, but little changed.

Do I just need to put up with these low oil temps?

I was using carb heat - initially, the least that I could get away with and not suffer shudders (about 40% from memory), and then later on 100%.

The only thing that I don't think I tried was to play around with the mixture, as I understand that it's broken. Or am I wrong? Logically, it would make sense for a fully rich mixture to stumble, and that would certainly explain why I couldn't maintain more than 3.3psi boost.

[ATAG_Knuckles]

Biggus:

Congrats on getting where you are with the Blenheim, takes a long time I know !

High Level: not sure where to start. I havent done it in a while, so I dont remember all the settings. Best I could suggest is:: lets hook up on comms and have a go together and compare: Once I get up I will remember:

HOWEVER :: the reason I haven't been flying at high level is: We i.e. Dutch: JimBop have discovered that attempting to use the bombsight at high levels is a moot point. The instrument panel blocks your vision and makes it impossible to track the target. AND the bomb aimers panel has the same issue.

SO we have just reverted to low level. There's no point in spending 20 minutes or more to climb to altitute only to have to keep turning around cause you've missed the target

ALSO: search the forums for a video bu RAAF_magpie .on skipbombing . I have been using his method and get at least 95% success.

See ya up there

Knuckles

[Dutch]

My problem is managing to keep the oil warm enough when I fly over 5000ft. I tried a few things. At one point, I had 3.3psi on the boost gauge (any higher than that and I'd start shuddering), prop pitch at 5% (again, max without shuddering) and cowl flaps roughly 35% open, with cylinder head temps hovering around the 240 degree mark. At this speed, I was able to maintain 190mph at 7,500ft, with a very slight climb. Ordinarily, I'd have been quite happy with that, but I was having a serious problem with oil temperature, which had dipped below 30 degrees.

I also tried to throttle back to about 1.6psi and close the cowl flaps to about 25%, but little changed.

Do I just need to put up with these low oil temps?

I was using carb heat - initially, the least that I could get away with and not suffer shudders (about 40% from memory), and then later on 100%.

Hello mate,

The easiest method of increasing your oil temp is to run at higher rpm for a couple of minutes with pitch full fine, with other settings adjusted to suit, but watch your head temps and cowl flap settings whilst you do this.
I haven't found that adjusting 'oil radiator' (oil cooler) settings have any effect (yet!).
The Blenheim does behave peculiarly at altitude, in that the higher you go, the more you have to back off the throttle. I've had the Blen up to 10,000 quite easily, starting off at the usual +4 to +5 boost but gradually backing off as the shakes start , and engaging carb heat at around 4500-5000ft.
I wasn't aware that carb heat was variable though, and thought it was simply on or off (I only use cockpit instruments), so I'll have a play with that and thanks for the tip!
I don't think mixture works, but may have an effect at altitude that I've missed, but as Knuckles says, it's currently not worth the effort for online gameplay!

[ATAG_Knuckles]

Hey Dutch !! (you will hate me for this) How do you adjust the "oil Radiator" in the Blenheim ????



Knuckles
as he crawls back under his rock

[Dutch]

Hey Dutch !! (you will hate me for this) How do you adjust the "oil Radiator" in the Blenheim ????

Weeelll, I've got the controls for 'oil radiator' assigned to keys on my G940, and they don't do anything, but because I don't fly with info boxes, I also don't know for sure if they don't do anything. I think I said that they 'don't do anything', didn't I?

Yep, thought so!

There're no rules about an aircooled engine not having a shuttered oil cooler, are there?

Nope, thought not!

Did the Blenheim have shuttered oil coolers? I have no idea.

Is it modelled in the game? I have no idea.

Smarta***!

[ATAG_Knuckles]

Done a little Radial engine work, some do have "Oil Coolers" most are quite small, now that I ponder this I do remember working on one that was shuttered, actually just a big "flap" in front of it that was operated by a cable

Been too many years cant recall which engine, as for the Bristol Mercury, it does have an oil cooler (the little horn looking thingy s sticking out of the cowl)

However I have NOT found anything in the cockpit to control them

Hummmm anybody else ??

[Jimbop]

No idea if they were present IRL (doubt it) but they aren't modelled in the Blenheim. They work in the 109 and German bombers.

[Biggus]

Thanks for all the responses, guys.

I'm usually on the bomber channel on TS3 when I fly, so pop in and we'll close out a map or three!

My reasoning for getting the Blen to a slightly higher altitude is to use it in a way that I don't think it was ever intended - as a dive bomber. While the ships are easy low level targets, the other two objectives are frustratingly well defended, especially if you're flying in at 300ft.

I will try dropping my throttle back to near zero boost and then increasing pitch, but I am not holding my breath for an increase in oil temps.

As for oil coolers, I'll have a bit of a play with them too. I'd have suspected a slider-looking thing in the info box, though. I don't know about air cooled aero engines, but the old VW air cooled motors have coolers with a flap in the housing around them, but I don't remember how adjustable they were. Certainly not adjustable from the cabin.

There's something else that I can try and do, but I'm not expecting a positive result, provided I can get enough boost in it: I'll disable the boost cut at high altitude and try to get a better air/fuel ratio. In the absence of mixture control, it's worth attempting.

[Jimbop]

My reasoning for getting the Blen to a slightly higher altitude is to use it in a way that I don't think it was ever intended - as a dive bomber. While the ships are easy low level targets, the other two objectives are frustratingly well defended, especially if you're flying in at 300ft.

I will try dropping my throttle back to near zero boost and then increasing pitch, but I am not holding my breath for an increase in oil temps.

Yes, this is a pretty foolproof way of getting bombs on target with just a little practice. I generally come in at about 4,000 feet until almost directly above the target. Cut throttle, close rads and dive steeply. Of course you have to remember that the Blenheim is NOT a dive bomber and tends to pull up a little slower than you could wish! Then open rads and firewall the throttle to quickly run out.

[Biggus]

That's why I'm trying to get a bit higher. Although more height means a slower recovery, hopefully it'll also mean that I'll move out of the flak zone a bit faster. Especially if I can level out at 5000ft+. It's only the oil temps that seem to foul up the plan.

The Ju-88s at Oye-Plage seem a bit tougher with the updated map. Perhaps I'm going about it all wrong and I should be having a go at taking out the flak units closest to the coast before even attempting to take out the objective.

ETA: We had a good hour or two on the server last night with Torian and I on comms (with a spit pilot covering us), and Dutch off comms but just being awesome all around.

I did try my theory out about maintaining a higher boost setting through prop management, and I did find a few things that made a minor difference. The first thing I changed (at Torian's suggestion) was my mixture. I set it for 25% as per the lever's 'normal' position initially, and began my sortie by making a circling climb above Littlestone. Carb heat was needed from about 4.5k, with full heat before 8k. Prop pitch at about 8%, boost at around 3.8-4.1 for most of the climb. That boost really started disappearing above 10k (at which point I had to cut pitch back to about 3%), and by about 14k, I was only just in positive numbers (0.6, from memory), with mixture down to fully lean. I don't think there's much of a benefit (apart from having cowl flaps a bit less open) to being this high, except if you're expecting to fry an engine. If this happens (which it did with my flight - I tried to get a little bit too creative), then you'll probably have enough energy to still hit a target on Blue territory. I seriously overheated both engines mid channel, so I went fully coarse, full throttle (such as it is when you're trailing a significant plume of oil smoke - if I had any positive boost on that inlet manifold, I'd be surprised), and still had 10k altitude over Oye-Plage when I attempted a dive-bombing run. Pulled out at about 3k, but got frustrated with the sound of my engines, so I nosed in on those ground targets.

Long story short, it's much easier to fly on the deck than above 10,000.

Other learning experiences in summary: It's easier to get above 10k if you do a ground start, because you'll have more heat in the engine. Oil temp isn't critical (although I suspect pressure may be an issue), because it's head temps that kill engines, and the oil temp will pick up with a reduction in altitude.

Next thing to learn: How cold can I let the oil go before I'm flying a bombed up glider? Will cold oil temps drive the pressure up until the bearings die and the crank siezes?