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Thread: TF4.3 flame burst in the smoke

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    Team Fusion OBT~Mikmak's Avatar
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    TF4.3 flame burst in the smoke

    Look at the beautiful flame burst in the smoke :


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    Re: TF4.3 flame burst in the smoke

    It is beautifull indeed

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    Re: TF4.3 flame burst in the smoke

    Awesome

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    Re: TF4.3 flame burst in the smoke

    Yes indeed, incredible!
    Don B

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    Re: TF4.3 flame burst in the smoke

    I think this effect is brilliant and so realistic.....The way a part of the flame comes away from the main flame (0.40) is genius...The first time I did this to 109 I found that I felt sick that the pilot was burning and was the first time I realised what the combatants really saw which made many of them dogfight with their canaopies open for easy exit

    Thanks for the vid...~S~
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    Re: TF4.3 flame burst in the smoke

    It is beautiful .....
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    Re: TF4.3 flame burst in the smoke

    Awesome!

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    Re: TF4.3 flame burst in the smoke

    It is impressive, and actually quite shocking...

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    Re: TF4.3 flame burst in the smoke

    Soooo realistic


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    Re: TF4.3 flame burst in the smoke

    Love it!
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    Re: TF4.3 flame burst in the smoke

    Hi gents,

    wait till you see how nice Hurricanes and Spitfires burn

    regards

    Little_D
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    Re: TF4.3 flame burst in the smoke

    Quote Originally Posted by Little_D View Post
    Hi gents,

    wait till you see how nice Hurricanes and Spitfires burn

    regards

    Little_D
    Seems the Luftwaffe are waiting a lot longer to see this effect on the RAF (certainly myself) than the Brits with 109's going into self spontaneous combustion mode all over the place

    Save yourselves the graphical trouble and just pass the instant RAF canon pk on to us instead, its more acceptable.
    5 secs to eject or I am past 'well done', with the flame behind me and not in the engine compartment.


    Last edited by Vlerkies; Mar-31-2014 at 15:11.
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    Re: TF4.3 flame burst in the smoke

    Quote Originally Posted by Vlerkies View Post
    Seems the Luftwaffe are waiting a lot longer to see this effect on the RAF (certainly myself) than the Brits with 109's going into self spontaneous combustion mode all over the place

    Save yourselves the graphical trouble and just pass the instant RAF canon pk on to us instead, its more acceptable.
    5 secs to eject or I am past 'well done', with the flame behind me and not in the engine compartment.


    Thats just horrido...Can you jettison canopy and get out quickly enough before PK in 109?

    This sim is so realistic its not nice...It feels like one of George Beurlings guest speaker speeches!!!
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    Supporting Member Little_D's Avatar
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    Re: TF4.3 flame burst in the smoke

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Lewis View Post
    Thats just horrido...Can you jettison canopy and get out quickly enough before PK in 109?
    Hi Lewis,

    sometimes if you react fast enough but most of the time you die.

    and by the way even when you hit right into the fueltank with more than 2x 20mm incendary + 7,65mm incendary it is hard to set spitfueltank on fire it is like this:

    First place: 109
    second place: Hurrie ( but only the wingtanks, not the tank in the front of the pilot, same like in the Spit )
    third place: Spit ( with a lot of distance to the other two)

    when i watched Grubers testvideo it looks like the fueltank is under the pilot and not in front of him.

    regards

    Little_D
    Last edited by Little_D; Mar-31-2014 at 19:09.
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    Re: TF4.3 flame burst in the smoke

    NOOOOOOOOO.....I have german friends....I like to play with them......but I do not want to see them burn.....get out...Get Out........GET OUT!!
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    Re: TF4.3 flame burst in the smoke

    Hmmm, where there's smoke there's fire......figuratively speaking.

    Hopefully Team Fusion will take a look at this while they're under the hood. A few of my not-many 109 victims have erupted into flames after a couple of sustained bursts. My ammo load in all eight guns is not fancy: five rounds of Ball No. 7 plus one round of DeWilde. If I had a higher percentage of DeWilde with a few white incendiary possibly I would have more flamers.

    Bears looking at, I believe.


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    Re: TF4.3 flame burst in the smoke

    One of the "advantages" of the 109, pointed out by Hans Eckhard Bob (srry if I misspelled that), was that the fuel tank was behind the pilot so that if it got hit the pilot didn't burn immediately as when a Spit or Hurri fuel tank was hit which sits in front of the pilot. So I guess as most of Spit/Hurri shots at a 109 are usually from behind it is more likely u gonna hit the fuel tank than a 109 shooting a Brit fighter from behind. I have 4 guns with DeWilde ammo only and I get a lot of flamers in all aircraft types. That feature u see sometimes of a flaming component that separates from the plane and goes down is soooo cool.

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    Re: TF4.3 flame burst in the smoke

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper View Post
    Hmmm, where there's smoke there's fire......figuratively speaking.

    Hopefully Team Fusion will take a look at this while they're under the hood. A few of my not-many 109 victims have erupted into flames after a couple of sustained bursts. My ammo load in all eight guns is not fancy: five rounds of Ball No. 7 plus one round of DeWilde. If I had a higher percentage of DeWilde with a few white incendiary possibly I would have more flamers.

    Bears looking at, I believe.
    Hmmmmm,

    Question is: is this just a graphic tweak or actual damage?

    Makes a big difference.

    I'm thinking that it is a graphical tweak at this time as from my experience, much of the actual damage is not necessarily linked to the graphic images at this time. This is an area to be thoroughly dug into for TF5.0.
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    Re: TF4.3 flame burst in the smoke

    Are there any graphical representation of sorts of the hit boxes for this on the various planes, if anyone can provide that?
    Just so I know where to aim. I would like to return the barbecue invite to the RAF

    I think we could all benefit from it on both sides of the channel.
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    Re: TF4.3 flame burst in the smoke

    Quote Originally Posted by Vlerkies View Post
    Are there any graphical representation of sorts of the hit boxes for this on the various planes, if anyone can provide that?
    Just so I know where to aim. I would like to return the barbecue invite to the RAF

    I think we could all benefit from it on both sides of the channel.
    Hi Vlerkies,

    for the Hurriecane wingtanks put your gunsighn at convergence 2-3 mm left or right from the fuselage on the wing. if you hit there most of the time the fueltank starts to burn and as you close in, still fireing your guns, you will hit also the hitbox for wing off for the Hurriecane, so you get both efects, fueltankfire and wing off

    for the Spit it is hard to say, but when you are coming from there high six and aim for the engin and open fire, some times you set the fueltank on fire, but in a turnclimb it is mutch harder to hit the right spot.

    regards

    Little_D
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    Re: TF4.3 flame burst in the smoke

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Torian View Post
    One of the "advantages" of the 109, pointed out by Hans Eckhard Bob (srry if I misspelled that), was that the fuel tank was behind the pilot so that if it got hit the pilot didn't burn immediately as when a Spit or Hurri fuel tank was hit which sits in front of the pilot. So I guess as most of Spit/Hurri shots at a 109 are usually from behind it is more likely u gonna hit the fuel tank than a 109 shooting a Brit fighter from behind. I have 4 guns with DeWilde ammo only and I get a lot of flamers in all aircraft types. That feature u see sometimes of a flaming component that separates from the plane and goes down is soooo cool.
    I have read that it is a disadvantage as the fuel tank in the 109 was L shaped and the pilot was sitting on it as well as having it to his back. This made the pilot vulnerable to the standard low six and a bit to the side attack. Hit the fuel tank and bang under the arse of the pilot!

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    Re: TF4.3 flame burst in the smoke

    I was looking through some old directories and came across the following picture taken just over 11 years ago (22nd Jan 2003) in IL2.

    Surprisingly good flame effects even that long ago!

    He-111%20Damaged%20Landing%2014.jpg
    Last edited by Roblex; Apr-01-2014 at 15:24.
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    Re: TF4.3 flame burst in the smoke

    Thanks LittleD.

    I have been rather unsuccessful to date to light a fire on anything of RAF origin though.
    I even changed my E1 wing guns to just phosphor AP's as a last resort, and have have the nose guns with a healthy mix of the ap rounds and phosphor.

    I have bushwhacked spits and hurris, attacked from high and low, left and right but nothing.
    I can kill the pilot, the engines, get em streaming white and black stuff, but have not managed to conjure up a fire just yet.
    The best I got was one last night with a much bigger plume of black smoke trailing him, but he continued to fly on.
    Im hitting them hard, they are going down, but in most cases its just engine damage, and rads(venting) that gets them down, and the odd pk here and there.'

    Quote Originally Posted by Talisman View Post
    I have read that it is a disadvantage as the fuel tank in the 109 was L shaped and the pilot was sitting on it as well as having it to his back. This made the pilot vulnerable to the standard low six and a bit to the side attack. Hit the fuel tank and bang under the arse of the pilot!
    Although it 'may' have been more prone to damage it was less of a problem than a fuel tank in front of the pilot in the Spits case, or wings like the hurri, as the slipstream forced the heat/flames back. The Hurri would burn quickly, the Spit it would be like sitting in front of a flame thrower.

    Found this quite interesting to read.
    16 August 1940

    Of the two main British fighter types participating in the Battle of Britain, the rugged Hawker Hurricane was notorious for its cockpit fires. The two main fuel tanks of this aircraft, positioned between the main spars in the wing roots, were completely unprotected by either armoured plate or self-sealing padding. Because of their placement, the tanks were vulnerable from behind and easily set ablaze when hit by enemy gunfire.

    The Hurricane’s construction had made it dangerous in the event of the aircraft catching fire. As there was floor in the cockpit, flames from a burning wing tank could easily penetrate into it through the open space underneath the pilot’s feet. In addition, the gravity fuel tank which collected the fuel from the wing tanks before feeding it into the engine sat in the fuselage right in front of the instrument panel, without any form of protection between it and the pilot. If set on fire, it could sent a jet of flame right in the pilot’s face and body. To make matters even worse, the wooden construction and fabric covering of the rear fuselage meant that fire could spread through the rear fuselage structure quite easily.

    Official RAF pilots’ instructions warned that at an altitude of 15,000 feet, cockpit temperature in a fighter suffering fuel fire rose from cool room temperature to 3,000 degrees Centigrade in the space of ten seconds. Even given the limited protection of his flying suit and gloves, the pilot had to get out immediately – or risk not being able to get out at all.

    In contrast, fuel tanks of a Spitfire were located in the forward fuselage, protected from the rear and above by armoured plate and by the bulk of the engine from the front. Also, a sealed firewall separated the tank from the cockpit. In statistical terms, the Spitfire’s construction translated into much lower rate of burn injuries on Spitfires than on Hurricanes.

    To be fair, the placement of fuel tank in Bf 109 was almost as bad as that in the Hurricane. In the German fighter, it was located… under the pilot’s seat. However, the Messerchmitt featured a jetissonable canopy with quick release handle, an invention which greatly simplified the bail out procedure.

    On balance, the Hurricane was the most fire-prone of the three types. Many Hurricane pilots were seriously burned as a consequence of fuel fires which turned the cockpits of their aircraft into a blazing death traps.

    The day of 16 August brought but two memorable examples of such ordeal.
    http://spitfiresite.com/2010/08/batt...urricanes.html

    So, considering the above irrefutable evidence from a Spitfire site I put it to you that Clod has it wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Little_D View Post
    First place: 109
    second place: Hurrie ( but only the wingtanks, not the tank in the front of the pilot, same like in the Spit )
    third place: Spit ( with a lot of distance to the other two)


    regards

    Little_D
    1st place and second place need a little switch around, be a pal why don't you
    Last edited by Vlerkies; Apr-03-2014 at 08:43.
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    Re: TF4.3 flame burst in the smoke

    Quote Originally Posted by Vlerkies View Post
    Thanks LittleD.

    I have been rather unsuccessful to date to light a fire on anything of RAF origin though.
    I even changed my E1 wing guns to just phosphor AP's as a last resort, and have have the nose guns with a healthy mix of the ap rounds and phosphor.

    I have bushwhacked spits and hurris, attacked from high and low, left and right but nothing.
    I can kill the pilot, the engines, get em streaming white and black stuff, but have not managed to conjure up a fire just yet.
    The best I got was one last night with a much bigger plume of black smoke trailing him, but he continued to fly on.
    Im hitting them hard, they are going down, but in most cases its just engine damage, and rads(venting) that gets them down, and the odd pk here and there.
    Hi Vlerkies,

    this only works with E3/E4 with the E1 you can only set the tank on fire with a 3 - 4 second burst at the described point, no wing off. with canons a two second burst is enough to get this result + wing off

    for the E3/E4 use the default loadout for all guns is the historical one, works perfect.

    regards

    Little_D
    Last edited by Little_D; Apr-03-2014 at 08:08.
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    Re: TF4.3 flame burst in the smoke

    Quote Originally Posted by ATAG_Torian View Post
    One of the "advantages" of the 109, pointed out by Hans Eckhard Bob (srry if I misspelled that), was that the fuel tank was behind the pilot so that if it got hit the pilot didn't burn immediately as when a Spit or Hurri fuel tank was hit which sits in front of the pilot. So I guess as most of Spit/Hurri shots at a 109 are usually from behind it is more likely u gonna hit the fuel tank than a 109 shooting a Brit fighter from behind. I have 4 guns with DeWilde ammo only and I get a lot of flamers in all aircraft types. That feature u see sometimes of a flaming component that separates from the plane and goes down is soooo cool.

    In fact the Hurricane was a terrible flaminero, the problem was not the forward reserve tank but the wing tanks. There was no bulkhead between the wing roots and the cockpit so a hit into the wing tanks would see fuel pour into the cockpit ready to be ignited, often at the same time. Cockpit temperature would go from ambient to 3000C within 10 seconds according to a stat I once heard.

    In game a wing root fire should theoretically also engulf the pilot from the inside of the machine, has anybody experienced this?

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    Re: TF4.3 flame burst in the smoke

    Sorry while you guys were replying I was editing my post. see above.

    1st and 2nd place need to switch, more crispy Brits in Hurri's please
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    Re: TF4.3 flame burst in the smoke

    Quote Originally Posted by Little_D View Post
    Hi Vlerkies,

    this only works with E3/E4 with the E1 you can only set the tank on fire with a 3 - 4 second burst at the described point, no wing off. with canons a two second burst is enough to get this result + wing off
    He can keep his wing, but come on baby light my fire dammit
    I figure if the British weapons can set my 109 alight, why would my E1's sissy pistols be any different?
    Ok the DeWilde round is apparently twice a likely to start a fire as apposed to the Hun incendiary at the time, but there must be some kind of balance at play here if the aircraft like the Hurricane were more prone to burn in the first place as a result of their design.
    Burning 109's everywhere, its a really bad dream

    Lol, anyway, take a lot of the above tongue in cheek lads, not arguing, but perhaps it needs a look into for the next big patch.
    Till then everytime the scramble siren sounds, I'm jumping in the base duckpond first before climbing in the cockpit.
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    Re: TF4.3 flame burst in the smoke

    Quote Originally Posted by Vlerkies View Post
    Lol, anyway, take a lot of the above tongue in cheek lads, not arguing, but perhaps it needs a look into for the next big patch.
    Till then everytime the scramble siren sounds, I'm jumping in the base duckpond first before climbing in the cockpit.
    The most recent update (4.3.1) had this little note in it -> Fuel tank Armour revised on all types. However the patch was withdrawn, as you know due to problems with E4/N and the launcher crashes.

    If you start doing some controlled tests now, record your results. Conduct them again after the hotfix is out and see if there is any difference.

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    Re: TF4.3 flame burst in the smoke

    Hi Phil
    I know what its like now, so will know if its different in 4.31 or 5 etc.
    I haven't managed to set anything on fire yet so Im not expecting to get it right in between now and 4.31 say.
    So if I do get it right in 4.3 then I will simply have to conclude there has been a adjustment in the right direction and smile while admiring the fireball spinning down to mother earth.
    Last edited by Vlerkies; Apr-03-2014 at 11:52.
    http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=4036&dateline=1382347  940

    If it's brown, shoot it down!

  30. #30
    Veteran Combat pilot
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    Re: TF4.3 flame burst in the smoke

    As well as the Bf 109 'L' shape fuel tank under the pilot seat being more vulnerable to a the very common low six attack (exploited by the Britts and then then Russians), I believe that the less fuel in a tank then the more vulnerable it will be, as there will be more space with fumes to explode the tank. In the BoB, the Bf 109 was known to struggle for range and fuel, so having first gained altitude, joined up with bomber formations and then flown across to England, there would be a large percentage of fume filled space to assist explosion. Also, I have read that fuel in a tank can even slow down and provide some limited protection from ammunition as long as it stays in the fluid, but once a fume filled space is ignited then it's big boom time and good night to the pilot!

    Not sure if fuel tank levels and associated increased risk of explosion is taken into account in CloD, but if it is then fighter pilots might want to consider starting a sortie with nothing less than 100% fuel, LOL.

    Happy landings,

    Talisman

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